[POLL]Should large Syndicate bombs be restricted to nukeops?

[Incoming]

Bottom post of the previous page:

you can use the button as many times as you want, hell back when traitors had it a big problem was them being overzealous with it and accidentally getting caught in their own blast because they were detonating too quickly.

In any case that's off topic

[mrpain]

Because the admin/coder who is proposing and pushing hard for the change cannot be bothered to discuss this with the community, (outside of a website that only a fraction of the community uses) despite claiming that this is being done for the "greater good" of the community, I have posted his reasoning and argument for it here for him.

Spoiler:

I have no idea if he is aware of the poll or the thread.

[Reimoo]

Sounds like he is going to do it regardless of any feedback given.

Welp.

[Steelpoint]

Since Aran is going into this with the idea of it being 'for the greater good of the community', he clearly intends for it to be merged irrespective of anyone else's opinion. That much is obvious when he clearly states outright he does not care for the general community's opinion.

I find it amusing that it is this kind of behaviour that helped spur the code base, and to an extent playerbase, split.

[mrpain]

Since Aran is going into this with the idea of it being 'for the greater good of the community', he clearly intends for it to be merged irrespective of anyone else's opinion. That much is obvious when he clearly states outright he does not care for the general community's opinion.

I find it amusing that it is this kind of behaviour that helped spur the code base, and to an extent playerbase, split.

If this is the way change is going to be conducted on this server I really don't see myself playing here any longer.

You don't get to tell me what is best for me without at least asking me first.

And ignoring the player base when such a majority is against it? Come on.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

There's even a practice bomb in the brig now, so the crew only doesn't defuse the bombs if they don't want to.

Obviously each traitor screams the exact location of the bomb each time they plant it. Especially if it's hidden in maintenance to take out tcomms or SMES.

I honestly don't know what to think of this. On one hand, this way to make changes isn't right. On the other hand, it isn't wrong either. This is literally how every other game is made, developers do stuff, they can do it regardless of what each individual player thinks. Most of you people are no less selfish: "How dare you tell ME what is fun and what is not?!" The thing is, everyone has their own opinion just about everything. Sure, it sucks when something is implemented that you personally don't like, but it's just the way of things. Someone thought it would be for the better, and perhaps they're right. I'm not saying that feedback should not be gathered, absolutely it should, but what majority thinks is not always for the better either. There are downsides both to working as a big group and having only one to few people picture the design.

As for me, I don't really care either way, since I never use bombs. But you know, tcomms being bombed is very annoying.

[Jalleo]

There's even a practice bomb in the brig now, so the crew only doesn't defuse the bombs if they don't want to.

Obviously each traitor screams the exact location of the bomb each time they plant it. Especially if it's hidden in maintenance to take out tcomms or SMES.

I honestly don't know what to think of this. On one hand, this way to make changes isn't right. On the other hand, it isn't wrong either. This is literally how every other game is made, developers do stuff, they can do it regardless of what each individual player thinks. Most of you people are no less selfish: "How dare you tell ME what is fun and what is not?!" The thing is, everyone has their own opinion just about everything. Sure, it sucks when something is implemented that you personally don't like, but it's just the way of things. Someone thought it would be for the better, and perhaps they're right. I'm not saying that feedback should not be gathered, absolutely it should, but what majority thinks is not always for the better either. There are downsides both to working as a big group and having only one to few people picture the design.

As for me, I don't really care either way, since I never use bombs. But you know, tcomms being bombed is very annoying.

I also dont use bombs myself they are just pretty much a call that this round is now worthless and should end whenever I hear that a bomb or two have gone off espeically in areas that a lot of people have to go through.

And the reason is given off pretty easily by one person:

Some people treat bombs like they're a problem that causes short rounds, but from where I'm standing I think that's backwards. Traitors bomb and crews rush shuttle because they are so ready to move onto the next round no matter what, the bomb being (marginally) overused is just a symptom of this mindset.

Everyone wants to push ahead, everyone wants to get to that next roll for job/antag, no one cares about what happens on any given station, just what happens personally to them over a great many stations. When everything can be reset so easily, what's the point of trying to maintain?

I've suggested alternatives that could mitigate how much damage a bomb could do and it's just been a slow stream of soft nerfs for bombs since they were added. By this point I don't know what else to say about it except that it feels like a witch hunt against the item because it happens to be a small but highly visible part of a big problem that no one knows how to actually fix.

Also there's just no defense against removing the minibomb, which doesn't have the destructive force to qdel anything that has density, they do two very different things. Feels like you just want to remove the explosion system entirely.

The question behind this all is:

Have we gone into a skinner box effect with our playerbase of needing to get to the next roll?
To become a antag again?

[bandit]

This is a band-aid. If the aim is to increase round-lengths, then removing the syndicate bomb will not accomplish anything as the underlying player behavior behind early calls and not ever fixing anything will still remain. I'm getting rather tired of changes made to the game with spurious justifications ("This will totally stop graytiding!/produce longer rounds!/increase FUN!") and when the changes fail to materialize -- as multiple players point out -- coders and admins throwing up their hands and saying "Well the change stays, and moreover it was never really about that in the first place so fuck you."

[Miauw]

Since Aran is going into this with the idea of it being 'for the greater good of the community', he clearly intends for it to be merged irrespective of anyone else's opinion. That much is obvious when he clearly states outright he does not care for the general community's opinion.

I find it amusing that it is this kind of behaviour that helped spur the code base, and to an extent playerbase, split.

If this is the way change is going to be conducted on this server I really don't see myself playing here any longer.

You don't get to tell me what is best for me without at least asking me first.

And ignoring the player base when such a majority is against it? Come on.

majority opinion is mostly irrelevant. (see: speed change)
if the majority is in favor of a shitty and unbalanced item, said item remains shitty and unbalanced.

also, the forums are only used by a small part of the community too :^]

I'm basically in favor of this because bombing the station should take at least SOME effort.
There's plenty ways to make ghetto bombs and C4 is really cheap. You can steal TTVs if you want, or you can just use them if you are one of the people that has access to toxins (or could reasonably be allowed in there). a lot of people may have reason to be in there.

And yes releasing the singularity has the same effect and can also be done 5min into the round but the singulo sucks and should be replaced.

I don't agree wtih minibomb removal tho

also yeah aran can really be a butt sometimes.

[Mandurrrh]

But bombing the station does take effort. One syndicate bomb isn't qualified to count as bombing the station and maybe we should focus the effort of gameplay on the entire crew to play their actual jobs and repair one bombs damage instead of making the focus on relying on one antag/player to put all te effort into the actual round.

Sorry but if one syndicate bomb feels so completely devestating to your game you shouldn't be playing.

And continuing to ignore the community is going to leave you with no community. You're already halfway there to killing the server though so keep going. Or don't. Not like you hear or care what we say anyways.

[Steelpoint]

Lets not forget the other PR that is increasing a bombs cost to 6 tc's. Meaning a single traitor could only deploy a single bomb at the cost of most of their TC's.

[Miauw]

a single bomb can take out tcomms, and gl getting that back up.
a single bomb can take out all the smess, gl not having the shuttle called when that happens.

also if all im going to serve as in this thread is a punching ball for mad players to release their tension on, i'll just stop replying.

[Mandurrrh]

But those things can be fixed! We have rnd for that reason. I've seen one engineer fix ridiculous damage before. Just throwing in the towel promotes antag play only. Are we playing the game just waiting for a turn as antag to actually play or is it a role play game where doing our jobs IS playing the game.

And honest I don't have a mean bone in me so please consider the tone to text handicap and believe me when I apologize if you think I was trying to put you down in anyway.

[Miauw]

yeah, SOMETIMES people will fix it.
but most of the time people will just call the shuttle because there's nobody on that understands how tcomms works or the captain just calls the shuttle and ignores the cries of "WE CAN FIX IT".

[Mandurrrh]

yeah, SOMETIMES people will fix it.
but most of the time people will just call the shuttle because there's nobody on that understands how tcomms works or the captain just calls the shuttle and ignores the cries of "WE CAN FIX IT".

So instead of encouraging them to learn the job roles and putting a restriction on shuttle calls we should remove an item that really doesn't cause enough damage to devastate the station? It's encouraging the teamdeathmatch reputation we already have and we are only furthering ourselves from the actual rp and standard job roles of the game.

Instead of keeping the 'well if we give antags this one bomb people are going to just call the shuttle because no one does any work' ideology of this item lets encourage the 'this item isn't powerful enough to actual end a game and provides an opportunity for nonantag players to have a role in the round and tasks to complete'

[Kuraudo]

majority opinion is mostly irrelevant. (see: speed change)
if the majority is in favor of a shitty and unbalanced item, said item remains shitty and unbalanced.

Shitty and unbalanced by standards decided by who ? Coder's standards are above everything ? That's not the way it works. Players get to experience first hand your gameplay changes. If they say by an overwhelming majority that this feature is shitty or should be kept, and you think the exact opposite, that's not the entire playerbase who's wrong, it's you.
You make it sound like it's the coder master race vs the players untermensch.

You are saying that because you took the server popularity for granted and never saw it significantly decreasing as a result of your controversial changes. Continue to push in that direction of nerfs, decreases, suppressions, without listening to people's feedback, and that's gonna happen.

[Miauw]

How would we encourage them to learn the roles?
When the oppurtunity arises for them to learn, the shuttle is called and they don't get a chance after all.
Early bombs results in early shuttle calls results in short rounds, which sucks for everyone.

somewhat irrelevant (but still more relevant than kuruado's post), but people like kuruado are why i'm the only maintainer that bothers to post in the feedback section regularily.
you're just bringing up your shitty arguments that you've brought up a thousand times before and that have gotten three threads locked so far. hopefully this thread can still provide some sort of useful discussion.

[Steelpoint]

I still stand by my earlier statement. Mainly in that making the process of calling the evacuation shuttle more time consuming than it would be to fix a hull breach will give a better reason for the crew to repair damage. In addition it would force whoever wants to call the evac shuttle to make some actual effort on their part to do that, instead of swiping a card.

[Hornygranny]

majority opinion is mostly irrelevant. (see: speed change)
if the majority is in favor of a shitty and unbalanced item, said item remains shitty and unbalanced.

Shitty and unbalanced by standards decided by who ? Coder's standards are above everything ? That's not the way it works. Players get to experience first hand your gameplay changes. If they say by an overwhelming majority that this feature is shitty or should be kept, and you think the exact opposite, that's not the entire playerbase who's wrong, it's you.
You make it sound like it's the coder master race vs the players untermensch.

You are saying that because you took the server popularity for granted and never saw it significantly decreasing as a result of your controversial changes. Continue to push in that direction of nerfs, decreases, suppressions, without listening to people's feedback, and that's gonna happen.

That's actually exactly the way it works. If you don't work on the game, your opinion is just an opinion, no matter how many of you there are. You are not entitled to anything.

[Mandurrrh]

I still stand by my earlier statement. Mainly in that making the process of calling the evacuation shuttle more time consuming than it would be to fix a hull breach will give a better reason for the crew to repair damage. In addition it would force whoever wants to call the evac shuttle to make some actual effort on their part to do that, instead of swiping a card.

Like steel point suggests! Or like I said about putting restrictions on shuttle calls. Or calculation station devastation so that centcomm automatically denies it or recalls. "No mother fuckers it's like three floor tiles exposed to space stop being lazy shits and do your job. That's what we pay you for -centcomm"

But you know maybe a bit nicer I mean if there are engineers and they are refusing to fix it pass them a demotion ban and say enjoy always playing assistant instead of doing your job. Rolling jobs just hoping for antag and their access is powergamey and shouldn't be acceptable. They only want to play the job if they can kill someone? Take it away make them earn back the position.

[Kuraudo]

How would we encourage them to learn the roles?
When the oppurtunity arises for them to learn, the shuttle is called and they don't get a chance after all.
Early bombs results in early shuttle calls results in short rounds, which sucks for everyone.

somewhat irrelevant (but still more relevant than kuruado's post), but people like kuruado are why i'm the only maintainer that bothers to post in the feedback section regularily.
you're just bringing up your shitty arguments that you've brought up a thousand times before and that have gotten three threads locked so far. hopefully this thread can still provide some sort of useful discussion.

What i brought from my previous posts ? Those three words: nerfs, decreases, suppressions.
The point is, you are not listening to the playerbase and you seem proud of it.
You are doing an ad hominem because you have nothing acceptable to answer to this.
Your behaviour will change when the players will start to leave the boat because of it, but maybe it will be too late at this point.

Plus, what you said about telecomms being bombed was already being said at page 1, i wanted to test this scenario yesterday. I was a traitor and spawned a bomb. I planted it in maint above telecomms. The explosion took out the upper part of the area.
My face when the CE got out of his office and repaired it under five minutes.

[Mandurrrh]

How would we encourage them to learn the roles?
When the oppurtunity arises for them to learn, the shuttle is called and they don't get a chance after all.
Early bombs results in early shuttle calls results in short rounds, which sucks for everyone.

somewhat irrelevant (but still more relevant than kuruado's post), but people like kuruado are why i'm the only maintainer that bothers to post in the feedback section regularily.
you're just bringing up your shitty arguments that you've brought up a thousand times before and that have gotten three threads locked so far. hopefully this thread can still provide some sort of useful discussion.

What i brought from my previous posts ? Those three words: nerfs, decreases, suppressions.
The point is, you are not listening to the playerbase and you seem proud of it.
You are doing an ad hominem because you have nothing acceptable to answer to this.
Your behaviour will change when the players will start to leave the boat because of it, but maybe it will be too late at this point.

Plus, what you said about telecomms being bombed was already being said at page 1, i wanted to test this scenario yesterday. I was a traitor and spawned a bomb. I planted it in maint above telecomms. The explosion took out the upper part of the area.
My face when the CE got out of his office and repaired it under five minutes.

I can build ten machines in robotics in five minutes. Know how long it takes to build a new SMES? Place cable knot on ground. Make machine frame, add cable, add board, add bits, screwdriver. Ta da!

[Miauw]

I still stand by my earlier statement. Mainly in that making the process of calling the evacuation shuttle more time consuming than it would be to fix a hull breach will give a better reason for the crew to repair damage. In addition it would force whoever wants to call the evac shuttle to make some actual effort on their part to do that, instead of swiping a card.

Like steel point suggests! Or like I said about putting restrictions on shuttle calls. Or calculation station devastation so that centcomm automatically denies it or recalls. "No mother fuckers it's like three floor tiles exposed to space stop being lazy shits and do your job. That's what we pay you for -centcomm"

But you know maybe a bit nicer I mean if there are engineers and they are refusing to fix it pass them a demotion ban and say enjoy always playing assistant instead of doing your job. Rolling jobs just hoping for antag and their access is powergamey and shouldn't be acceptable. They only want to play the job if they can kill someone? Take it away make them earn back the position.

I'm rather hesistant to have the shuttle not arrive unless a certain part of the station is destroyed, it'd certainly cause issues. And extended would literally go on forever until somebody gets bored and starts griffing or admins happens. (and if you let people call it anyway during extended they'll just metagame it and call the shuttle because they dont want to play extended). Needing an amount of crewmembers dead before the shuttle can be called would encourage murderboning, etc. Automated detection of these things is jut really really hard. I'm willing to try it if you can give me good ideas, but I can't think of something that won't push traitors into specific playstyles (release the singulo or murderbone or gg). I guess you could argue that that is already the case now, but we wouldn't want to make it even MORE the case.

Making it harder to call the shuttle is a decent idea I guess, but 1) how would you do that and 2) if calling the shuttle has to be more time-consuming than fixing a breach, calling the shuttle in an emergency will be basically impossible.

Also Kuruado your post consists of strawmen and ad hominems. If you're going to throw around fallacies, try not making them yourself. And don't pretend you're being the completely peaceful perfect negotiator with your aggressive tone. And I do listen to the community, I just don't do something simply because of vote. Feedback is important, I gather feedback for my PRs and take the things players say into consideration.

[Mandurrrh]

I still stand by my earlier statement. Mainly in that making the process of calling the evacuation shuttle more time consuming than it would be to fix a hull breach will give a better reason for the crew to repair damage. In addition it would force whoever wants to call the evac shuttle to make some actual effort on their part to do that, instead of swiping a card.

Like steel point suggests! Or like I said about putting restrictions on shuttle calls. Or calculation station devastation so that centcomm automatically denies it or recalls. "No mother fuckers it's like three floor tiles exposed to space stop being lazy shits and do your job. That's what we pay you for -centcomm"

But you know maybe a bit nicer I mean if there are engineers and they are refusing to fix it pass them a demotion ban and say enjoy always playing assistant instead of doing your job. Rolling jobs just hoping for antag and their access is powergamey and shouldn't be acceptable. They only want to play the job if they can kill someone? Take it away make them earn back the position.

I'm rather hesistant to have the shuttle not arrive unless a certain part of the station is destroyed, it'd certainly cause issues. And extended would literally go on forever until somebody gets bored and starts griffing or admins happens. (and if you let people call it anyway during extended they'll just metagame it and call the shuttle because they dont want to play extended). Needing an amount of crewmembers dead before the shuttle can be called would encourage murderboning, etc. Automated detection of these things is jut really really hard. I'm willing to try it if you can give me good ideas, but I can't think of something that won't push traitors into specific playstyles (release the singulo or murderbone or gg). I guess you could argue that that is already the case now, but we wouldn't want to make it even MORE the case.

Making it harder to call the shuttle is a decent idea I guess, but 1) how would you do that and 2) if calling the shuttle has to be more time-consuming than fixing a breach, calling the shuttle in an emergency will be basically impossible.

Also Kuruado your post consists of strawmen and ad hominems. If you're going to throw around fallacies, try not making them yourself. And don't pretend you're being the completely peaceful perfect negotiator with your aggressive tone. And I do listen to the community, I just don't do something simply because of vote. Feedback is important, I gather feedback for my PRs and take the things players say into consideration.

How can there be extended rounds on Sybil but none of the 60-90 players know how to fix smes, telecoms, or one bomb damage? And admin presence should be continuous on the serve so good. Also it's mostly to just show that there are ways to encourage getting back to role play and actual ss13 than playing the game waiting for your turn as an antag. Brainstorm. We have an entire community full of suggestions and some of the smartest most well versed gamers right here and invested in this game. Use it!

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Coder's standards are above everything ? That's not the way it works.

Um, yes, developer's standard is primary standard, that's how everything works in video games.

Players get to experience first hand your gameplay changes. If they say by an overwhelming majority that this feature is shitty or should be kept, and you think the exact opposite, that's not the entire playerbase who's wrong, it's you.

You can't be wrong about something that is entirely subjective.

Making shuttle calls harder would make situations where you really need shuttle (like every nuke ops round, for example) much worse, so that's not really an option. Making destruction of station or people killed a requirement is ridiculous and won't ever do any good or even serve its purpose.

[Reimoo]

The question behind this all is:

Have we gone into a skinner box effect with our playerbase of needing to get to the next roll?
To become a antag again?

Perhaps people want the round to end as soon as possible because being a non-antag is boring?

Honestly, this is an easy fix guys. Add more content.

People hate being a non antagonist because being a target for someone who did actually get picked to become a sanctioned troll isn't fun. If we had more things for non-antagonists to do other than to twiddle their thumbs and wait to be killed, or trying to be antagonists anyway and complement the screaming children wanting to end the round maybe a shuttle call wouldn't be the first response for everything. Taking content out of the game rather than simply attempting to balance them is a giant step backwards and it only detracts fun from everyone involved.

Removing things from the game is not the solution.

[Kuraudo]

Also Kuruado your post consists of strawmen and ad hominems. If you're going to throw around fallacies, try not making them yourself. And don't pretend you're being the completely peaceful perfect negotiator with your aggressive tone. And I do listen to the community, I just don't do something simply because of vote. Feedback is important, I gather feedback for my PRs and take the things players say into consideration.

Good luck trying to put a "tone" over words written on the internet. You must be imagining me shouting at you with an angry voice, perhaps ? I'm trying to be constructive; Ignoring player feedback won't make the game better. Telling people you don't need their feedback is like asking to be yelled at. Because we're nice guys, nobody is doing that to you.

If the original poster, mrpain, wouldn't have posted this, anyone not being on github would be clueless about this.
You say that i misinterpreted your words. Fine; If you really consider feedback important, consider this summarized version of the topic, not only of the vote but also the written posts: We are a majority that don't want the syndicate bombs to be limited to nuke ops. It's simple, really, and we should not be writing an essay about this. We should not spend some significant part of our free time trying to convince some people not to remove something we like from the game.
It's there, we like it. We already told you why in many ways. We invalidated the argument about round ending quickly because of severe destruction. (A singularity is 10 times more deadly and easy to release.) We see no reason why it should be removed.

Um, yes, developer's standard is primary standard, that's how everything works in video games.

Except that, when you don't listen to player's feedback about sequels, updates, etc, and those players don't like the new changes, you lose players and attractivity.
The Sims 4 is getting bashed as we speak, because EA removed pretty much everything from the previous sequel. I played the 3 a lot, i won't buy the 4, and i assure you i won't be the only one.

Perhaps people want the round to end as soon as possible because being a non-antag is boring?

Honestly, this is an easy fix guys. Add more content.

People hate being a non antagonist because being a target for someone who did actually get picked to become a sanctioned troll isn't fun. If we had more things for non-antagonists to do other than to twiddle their thumbs and wait to be killed, or trying to be antagonists anyway and complement the screaming children wanting to end the round maybe a shuttle call wouldn't be the first response for everything. Taking content out of the game rather than simply attempting to balance them is a giant step backwards and it only detracts fun from everyone involved.

Removing things from the game is not the solution.

Common sense right there. Improving the game rather than deleting everything efficient from it.

[mrpain]

That's actually exactly the way it works. If you don't work on the game, your opinion is just an opinion, no matter how many of you there are. You are not entitled to anything.

That is an absolutely shitty mindset to have, which serves nothing but to alienate players. What's the point of making a game if you're going to piss off a large majority of people? Some people just come here to play a game, not make one. Some people don't have the skill, time, or time to learn the skill. Why should they be put down like that?

[bandit]

How can there be extended rounds on Sybil but none of the 60-90 players know how to fix smes, telecoms, or one bomb damage? And admin presence should be continuous on the serve so good. Also it's mostly to just show that there are ways to encourage getting back to role play and actual ss13 than playing the game waiting for your turn as an antag. Brainstorm. We have an entire community full of suggestions and some of the smartest most well versed gamers right here and invested in this game. Use it!

A combination of:

- Fixing certain parts of the station - atmos mostly - is tedious as fuck and boring
- Shuttle gets instacalled most rounds at the slightest scratch, so engineers don't bother to even try given that in 5 minutes their work is worthless;
- Engineers don't ever learn how to fix the SMES or tcomms (though guides to both are readily available) due to the above; and
- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

[Ikarrus]

- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

Dereliction of Duty/Insubordination exists in space law to act as a deterrent against this, and really should be enforced more often.

[MMMiracles]

- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

Dereliction of Duty/Insubordination exists in space law to act as a deterrent against this, and really should be enforced more often.

Only problem is, people who get demoted usually end up spending the rest of their shift figuring out ways to fuck over the guy that got them demoted.

[Ikarrus]

I've demoted lots of guys and I rarely ever see this retribution everyone is afraid of. The couple of people who do try to get "revenge" get banned because they're not the type who reacts reasonably in these situations anyways.

I think you're overblowing this by always assuming the worst. Not everyone is as spiteful as the worst of us.

[mrpain]

- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

Dereliction of Duty/Insubordination exists in space law to act as a deterrent against this, and really should be enforced more often.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

Nope. Neither one of those charges exist.....

[Ikarrus]

That sucks. They must have been removed some time ago then.

We should really add them back in.

[cedarbridge]

That sucks. They must have been removed some time ago then.

We should really add them back in.

They tend to be kinda brought out as extensions of "The head of staff is the supreme authority in his/her/xer department" thing.

On the note about how players react, I've had players go so far as to metagrudge me for several days after a demotion. Something to consider.

[Ikarrus]

Then I hope you reported that to an admin. It's something that, if true, should have been warranted action.

[leibniz]

- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

Dereliction of Duty/Insubordination exists in space law to act as a deterrent against this, and really should be enforced more often.

http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

Nope. Neither one of those charges exist.....

If I recall correctly it was in the draft of malkevin's new space law, but not in the final version.

[bandit]

I've demoted lots of guys and I rarely ever see this retribution everyone is afraid of. The couple of people who do try to get "revenge" get banned because they're not the type who reacts reasonably in these situations anyways.

Funny, in my experience the people who try to get "revenge" don't get banned for it, and the people who perform demotions or try to otherwise retaliate against tiders get admin notes placed on them. See: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 335#p27335

I have also been metagrudged for demotions, provable in that players have flat out said in OOC after the round that they'll do it (and then they do.) When I try to report this to the admins they generally either do nothing or laugh in my face (or punish me, like the last time I tried to report metagrudging).

[Ikarrus]

If I recall correctly it was in the draft of malkevin's new space law, but not in the final version.

Now that you mention it, I do vaguely recall some kind of discussion around insubordination laws. I can't really search for it any more, since it's lost in erroland, but I'd like to re-open the topic.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1373

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Except that, when you don't listen to player's feedback about sequels, updates, etc, and those players don't like the new changes, you lose players and attractivity.
The Sims 4 is getting bashed as we speak, because EA removed pretty much everything from the previous sequel. I played the 3 a lot, i won't buy the 4, and i assure you i won't be the only one.

If they fail to make any decent profit from it, give me a call.

>pretty much everything
Yeah, they just left bare bones prototype that barely works, totally.

This only supports the point that majority is not to be trusted, because the majority knows fuck all about game development and doesn't care if something was removed for optimization's sake, for example, or just because it didn't really fit in the design. Majority won't give a fuck, in some people's minds removing anything is automatically bad, which could not be more false.

Some people don't have the skill, time, or time to learn the skill. Why should they be put down like that?

Because you don't spend your time and skill to do this shit?

It's not even about that, it's just how everything in the world works. Creators can do whatever with their creations. It's like saying that film director must replace an actor because majority of people didn't like his choice.

Moreover, you don't even have the evidence that majority supports your point. Poll? Give me a break, we don't know the reasons behind each vote, which makes that opinion essentially useless. Somebody could be just voting "yes" for everything. More to the point, forum population is not even the majority of players who actually play the game, so how can you get majority from that?

[mrpain]

It's not even about that, it's just how everything in the world works. Creators can do whatever with their creations. It's like saying that film director must replace an actor because majority of people didn't like his choice.

Moreover, you don't even have the evidence that majority supports your point. Poll? Give me a break, we don't know the reasons behind each vote, which makes that opinion essentially useless. Somebody could be just voting "yes" for everything. More to the point, forum population is not even the majority of players who actually play the game, so how can you get majority from that?

What's the point of making a creation, with the intent of serving it to other people, if no one is interested in using it? That's the path we are headed down now, if we disregard all input and criticism received.

I'm aware of the problems of depending on a forum poll. I would love nothing more than to have as much of the community have as loud of a voice on this issue as they can. But it was the only tool I had. A proper in game poll really is needed, but I obviously don't have access to that. Still, far better than only announcing the proposition on github where even a smaller portion of the community is.

[Miauw]

Also Kuruado your post consists of strawmen and ad hominems. If you're going to throw around fallacies, try not making them yourself. And don't pretend you're being the completely peaceful perfect negotiator with your aggressive tone. And I do listen to the community, I just don't do something simply because of vote. Feedback is important, I gather feedback for my PRs and take the things players say into consideration.

Good luck trying to put a "tone" over words written on the internet. You must be imagining me shouting at you with an angry voice, perhaps ? I'm trying to be constructive; Ignoring player feedback won't make the game better. Telling people you don't need their feedback is like asking to be yelled at. Because we're nice guys, nobody is doing that to you.

If the original poster, mrpain, wouldn't have posted this, anyone not being on github would be clueless about this.
You say that i misinterpreted your words. Fine; If you really consider feedback important, consider this summarized version of the topic, not only of the vote but also the written posts: We are a majority that don't want the syndicate bombs to be limited to nuke ops. It's simple, really, and we should not be writing an essay about this. We should not spend some significant part of our free time trying to convince some people not to remove something we like from the game.
It's there, we like it. We already told you why in many ways. We invalidated the argument about round ending quickly because of severe destruction. (A singularity is 10 times more deadly and easy to release.) We see no reason why it should be removed.

Your fallacy.
You still have provided no arguments as to why syndicate bombs should stay, and no counterarguments to me except saying that used a fallacy.

If you base what you change about the game solely on majority votes, you get something like Cataclysm DDA. There is a difference to listening to player's feedback and taking a poll taken from a small part of the community as the ultimate authority.

How can there be extended rounds on Sybil but none of the 60-90 players know how to fix smes, telecoms, or one bomb damage? And admin presence should be continuous on the serve so good. Also it's mostly to just show that there are ways to encourage getting back to role play and actual ss13 than playing the game waiting for your turn as an antag. Brainstorm. We have an entire community full of suggestions and some of the smartest most well versed gamers right here and invested in this game. Use it!

A combination of:

- Fixing certain parts of the station - atmos mostly - is tedious as fuck and boring
- Shuttle gets instacalled most rounds at the slightest scratch, so engineers don't bother to even try given that in 5 minutes their work is worthless;
- Engineers don't ever learn how to fix the SMES or tcomms (though guides to both are readily available) due to the above; and
- There is no system, IC or OOC, to enforce the chain of command, so even if the CE ordered his engineers to fix shit, there's no reason for them to listen, and as a result nothing gets fixed.

This, pretty much.

And it seems like Kuruado has managed to turn this thread too into a flamewar, so goodbye.
I'd almost think that Kuruado wants the bomb to be removed and various things to be nerfed, since he causes all threads about it to be locked.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

if no one is interested in using it?

That hopefully won't be the case.

I'm aware of the problems of depending on a forum poll. I would love nothing more than to have as much of the community have as loud of a voice on this issue as they can. But it was the only tool I had. A proper in game poll really is needed, but I obviously don't have access to that. Still, far better than only announcing the proposition on github where even a smaller portion of the community is.

The thing is, polls are of limited use. They don't provide feedback other than "yes" or "no". That is not useful. Reasoning is useful. Two people may have the same opinion, but for the different reasons, and those reasons can change everything.

[Steelpoint]

I am going over points I've made in the past, but in my opinion this is really the only alternative.

-----

Problem: Frequent usage of bombs causing rounds to end earlier, little effort is made to repair damage.

Possible Solutions:

• Removing the bomb from general traitor inventory, replace with a bomb construction kit requires certain resources to make a bomb. So a traitor can still make a single bomb, but has to make more of an effort, but is not at the level of complexity/equipment requirement of toxins.
• Increase the TC cost of a bomb from 5 TCs to around 7-8 TCs.
• Reworking the stations layout to make systems more redundant, and spaced out. Meaning it would take more than a single bomb to knock out critical infrastructure. Or for their to be backup systems in place.
• Making calling the evac shuttle take longer. Such as a active process of aligning and setting up a communications dish, can make it harder for a single person to call an evacuation.
• Make the process of fixing equipment and breaches easier, such as a easier to use Metal Foam agent, more equipment lying around to repair systems, in game manuals on repairing machines, etc.

These are the best alternative solutions I can think of.

[Kuraudo]

If you base what you change about the game solely on majority votes, you get something like Cataclysm DDA. There is a difference to listening to player's feedback and taking a poll taken from a small part of the community as the ultimate authority.
And it seems like Kuruado has managed to turn this thread too into a flamewar, so goodbye.
I'd almost think that Kuruado wants the bomb to be removed and various things to be nerfed, since he causes all threads about it to be locked.

You coders, are the ones pushing for change. Therefore, you are the ones who should convince us to endorse this change. It's not hard to understand. It's not about any "truth", it's about what the community want for the game.

You (coders) started by saying that the change will lead to less destruction, and longer rounds as a result of critical material not getting bombed. Adding an argument of authority that you summed up by: It's for the greater good. We don't get a say in this.
We answered by saying that:
1 - Destruction is inevitable when people want it, they'll achieve it with various means, like the singularity, a well placed C4, etc.
2 - Destruction is not permanent or irreversible. You can repair pretty much everything with knowledge from the wiki and material from engineering areas.
3 - People tend to rush through rounds; therefore there is often little to no opposition from the shuttle being called kinda-early, since people want to get to the next round to have a chance to roll for antag. This problem can be fixed by giving players more content as an incentive to play the game as normal crewmans.
4 - Listening to player feedback is beneficial for the game. We play the game, we have a say in this. Not listening to the players could create conflicts and ultimately decrease in popularity of the server.

You responded by accusing me of logical fallacy, saying how mean i was, and that this thread will be locked.

We aren't convinced and ask for the syndicate bombs to remain available for traitors. We invite you to investigate other solutions to fix the problem of rounds ending early, some of them we already suggested.

Thank you for reading this, and have a nice day.

[Scott]

The general direction of coderbus of doing things is to remove things that aren't broken and add things that are broken.

They also don't care about the community at all, you can stop trying.

[Jalleo]

Spoiler:

God damn it STOP VIEWING PEOPLE AS CERTAIN GROUPS THAT ARE DEAD SET ON WHAT THEY WANT TO DO THERE ARE A LOT OF ARGUMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS ON HOW THE GAME CAN PROGRESS. IT IS AGREED THAT BOMBS OVERALL ARE SHITTY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO IT CAUSING FASTER ROUNDS MEANING LESS DEFINED GAMEPLAY PER ROUND AND MORE THE MONOTOMOUS GAMEPLAY OF SET UP ENGINE BOMB HITS SOMEWHERE LEAVE REPEAT.

Now apart from that spoiler I shall say this there is a lot of looking at the picture beyond just that one round which you play and there is a pattern with the syndicate bombs. I personally dont want minibombs to be removed but do you want to know what I can say about all of this?

This is why we cant have nice things. People always abuse it far too much in a way which helps nobody. If you really think this is so bad of a change then so be it everyone has their own opinion I personally think we should be able to give traitors bombs but since there are so many traitors on larger rounds it becomes idiotic to let them stay because the traitors will be able to bomb so many places before any repair work can occur.

[Scott]

Spoiler:

God damn it STOP VIEWING PEOPLE AS CERTAIN GROUPS THAT ARE DEAD SET ON WHAT THEY WANT TO DO THERE ARE A LOT OF ARGUMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS ON HOW THE GAME CAN PROGRESS. IT IS AGREED THAT BOMBS OVERALL ARE SHITTY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO IT CAUSING FASTER ROUNDS MEANING LESS DEFINED GAMEPLAY PER ROUND AND MORE THE MONOTOMOUS GAMEPLAY OF SET UP ENGINE BOMB HITS SOMEWHERE LEAVE REPEAT.

Now apart from that spoiler I shall say this there is a lot of looking at the picture beyond just that one round which you play and there is a pattern with the syndicate bombs. I personally dont want minibombs to be removed but do you want to know what I can say about all of this?

This is why we cant have nice things. People always abuse it far too much in a way which helps nobody. If you really think this is so bad of a change then so be it everyone has their own opinion I personally think we should be able to give traitors bombs but since there are so many traitors on larger rounds it becomes idiotic to let them stay because the traitors will be able to bomb so many places before any repair work can occur.

How deluded can you be? Look at the poll, the majority of the people think they're fine.

[Steelpoint]

Just because you don't want the bombs removed does not mean you disagree that they might be a bit broken in implementation. Hence why polls can sometimes be unreliable.

[Jalleo]

SNIP

There is currently over 50 people on the server right now do you seriously think a vote of which only 30 people said no speaks for everyone. Please make a actual proper reason for why bombs should stay I actually challenege you to.

[Scott]

Do you really think the opinion of one coder is above everybody else? Because that's pretty much the philosophy of coderbus, the community opinion doesn't matter. If the people who play on the server want to get involved with changes and whatnot, they can register on and use the COMMUNITY FORUMS. Making ingame polls for these things is ridiculous. Making big changes without community consent is also ridiculous.

But hey, I must be the mad man here.