Lets talk about the point of permabrig
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I'm not talking about round start prisoners here.
What is the point of permabrigging? Is it meant for antagonists that security / the captain wants to cut some slack? Is it meant for particularly troublesome crewmates? Well, we know what it's not for, volatile antagonists who can escape easily like changelings, heretics, and wizards (unless you cut their tongue out but good luck keeping them still for an operation.) And roleplay wise it makes little sense to capture and contain creatures like changelings in a room as feeble as a common prison. However, even without powers, any crewman with arms and a bit of know-how can escape prison consistently. You don't need a smuggled stash or a hidden power, you can just smash a window and spacewalk to arrivals given time. This is of course countered by security (the warden in particular) keeping a close eye on the prisoners via the cam console. But what do you do if you catch a prisoner trying to escape? Hall them off to solitary? I've had a lot of !fun! in situations like this including an encounter where we dragged a psychologist in to do an evaluation.
In LRP it is a sentiment of many players that if someone is not worth killing, there is not worth locking them up. Perma is seen as a round removal to many players.
All that being said I really like the concept of Perma and I have had many encounters from both sides of the bars, RP based and not, that were an incredibly good time all around.
But I have to ask, is Perma really in a good spot right now? and if it's not, what do we do to improve it?
What is the point of permabrigging? Is it meant for antagonists that security / the captain wants to cut some slack? Is it meant for particularly troublesome crewmates? Well, we know what it's not for, volatile antagonists who can escape easily like changelings, heretics, and wizards (unless you cut their tongue out but good luck keeping them still for an operation.) And roleplay wise it makes little sense to capture and contain creatures like changelings in a room as feeble as a common prison. However, even without powers, any crewman with arms and a bit of know-how can escape prison consistently. You don't need a smuggled stash or a hidden power, you can just smash a window and spacewalk to arrivals given time. This is of course countered by security (the warden in particular) keeping a close eye on the prisoners via the cam console. But what do you do if you catch a prisoner trying to escape? Hall them off to solitary? I've had a lot of !fun! in situations like this including an encounter where we dragged a psychologist in to do an evaluation.
In LRP it is a sentiment of many players that if someone is not worth killing, there is not worth locking them up. Perma is seen as a round removal to many players.
All that being said I really like the concept of Perma and I have had many encounters from both sides of the bars, RP based and not, that were an incredibly good time all around.
But I have to ask, is Perma really in a good spot right now? and if it's not, what do we do to improve it?
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
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- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Perma should be the minimum consequence for all enemies of the corporation, in my view. Unfortunately as you pointed out, many players believe that perma = round removal: as bad a punishment, if not a worse punishment, than execution.
While theoretically we could add more things for permabrig prisoners to do (video games etc), being contained in a pen will always be less fun than having freedom. Some people might try to escape, others will roleplay as a prisoner, and others will just ghost. In the end, I don't think you can evolve permabrig to be any more than a shiny cage.
While theoretically we could add more things for permabrig prisoners to do (video games etc), being contained in a pen will always be less fun than having freedom. Some people might try to escape, others will roleplay as a prisoner, and others will just ghost. In the end, I don't think you can evolve permabrig to be any more than a shiny cage.
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- Kendrickorium
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:00 am
- Byond Username: Kendrickorium
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
A shiny cage, indeed
for a long time i used perma as simply a punishment for those that would constantly grief and shit on others for no reason, and tell them to maybe rethink their decisions
i've found that a surprising amount of people will do well in perma though, a lot will ghost but a lot of people forget that a lot happens in the span of 30-80 minutes. ai's go rogue, traitors break people out for fun, etc etc.
permabrigging troublemakers that you know *might* break out isnt always a bad thing either, it can be a slight nod of the head saying, i don't want to execute you, but you need to chill for awhile.
for a long time i used perma as simply a punishment for those that would constantly grief and shit on others for no reason, and tell them to maybe rethink their decisions
i've found that a surprising amount of people will do well in perma though, a lot will ghost but a lot of people forget that a lot happens in the span of 30-80 minutes. ai's go rogue, traitors break people out for fun, etc etc.
permabrigging troublemakers that you know *might* break out isnt always a bad thing either, it can be a slight nod of the head saying, i don't want to execute you, but you need to chill for awhile.
- Jonathan Gupta
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:16 pm
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
tg perma is fun, other server perma is not fun(Due to no one being there and people just being generally shitty to the prisoners)
I feel like if you give someone an ounce of power over others, some will take that chance and absorb every molecule of power they get.
WHO KNOWS!!!
I feel like if you give someone an ounce of power over others, some will take that chance and absorb every molecule of power they get.
WHO KNOWS!!!
- Misdoubtful
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Remember when that one server Oracle revamped all of security into gen pop where everyone got an ID and a prison timer attached to it in a communal area? That was pretty cool and interactive. Goon, Aurora and a couple others have a similar approach of trying to keep just a large gen pop area (without the timer ID approach) as well because its way more interactive and has way more possibilities on what to do. I still miss playing on Oracle.Farquaar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:24 am While theoretically we could add more things for permabrig prisoners to do (video games etc), being contained in a pen will always be less fun than having freedom. Some people might try to escape, others will roleplay as a prisoner, and others will just ghost. In the end, I don't think you can evolve permabrig to be any more than a shiny cage.
That Oracle approach still seems to me like it was just the top of the line approach, because it didn't have that possibility of getting tossed into the absolute back of the map alone like sometimes happens now, or even worse, getting unreasonably locked down in a perma cell. Someone with a long timer ID (perma sentences went INTO gen pop too) could always just steal someone else's short timer ID if they were real enough on Oracle.
Permabrig in the very least is a lot less isolated than prison sat used to be, thankfully I only barely remember that being a thing. Prisoners has kind of helped a bit with perma brig too. It still sometimes just feels like a boring routine where you might get ignored unless you are willing to go through the routine of breaking out though.
Cat and mouse games are cool, does perma brig do a good job making that cat and mouse game fun? I mean it does, as long as people aren't lame about it.
Hugs
- terranaut
- Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
- Byond Username: Terranaut
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
permabrigging somebody is an IC solution for two seperate OOC desires, mainly two cases.
1. someone is being a griefing shithead but you're worried about killing them because you pressed adminwho, you put them in perma and then isolate their cell so they cant get out. do the ai a favor and take the paper or snip the camera.
2. you caught an antagonist who had a nice gimmick or otherwise contributed to the round in a way that was fun for the players and wasn't just maximising the amount of horizontal spacemen. as a conscious security/head player you now have two choices: valid salad or put them in permabrig where someone can bust them out, they can plead with the ai to be released or just smash a window and spacewalk to arrivals (this last one not anymore afaik because of shitty shortsighted changes contributing to bad gamedesign)
1. someone is being a griefing shithead but you're worried about killing them because you pressed adminwho, you put them in perma and then isolate their cell so they cant get out. do the ai a favor and take the paper or snip the camera.
2. you caught an antagonist who had a nice gimmick or otherwise contributed to the round in a way that was fun for the players and wasn't just maximising the amount of horizontal spacemen. as a conscious security/head player you now have two choices: valid salad or put them in permabrig where someone can bust them out, they can plead with the ai to be released or just smash a window and spacewalk to arrivals (this last one not anymore afaik because of shitty shortsighted changes contributing to bad gamedesign)
- stairmaster
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:13 am
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
i think you should get prizes for putting people in perma
- Farquaar
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- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Permabrig prisoners mixing with the regular brig prisoners? Now that's an idea I can get behind.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 amRemember when that one server Oracle revamped all of security into gen pop where everyone got an ID and a prison timer attached to it in a communal area? That was pretty cool and interactive. Goon, Aurora and a couple others have a similar approach of trying to keep just a large gen pop area (without the timer ID approach) as well because its way more interactive and has way more possibilities on what to do. I still miss playing on Oracle.
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- Jonathan Gupta
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:16 pm
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
yesFarquaar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:51 pmPermabrig prisoners mixing with the regular brig prisoners? Now that's an idea I can get behind.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 amRemember when that one server Oracle revamped all of security into gen pop where everyone got an ID and a prison timer attached to it in a communal area? That was pretty cool and interactive. Goon, Aurora and a couple others have a similar approach of trying to keep just a large gen pop area (without the timer ID approach) as well because its way more interactive and has way more possibilities on what to do. I still miss playing on Oracle.
- Misdoubtful
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
https://github.com/OracleStation/OracleStation/pull/419Farquaar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:51 pmPermabrig prisoners mixing with the regular brig prisoners? Now that's an idea I can get behind.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 amRemember when that one server Oracle revamped all of security into gen pop where everyone got an ID and a prison timer attached to it in a communal area? That was pretty cool and interactive. Goon, Aurora and a couple others have a similar approach of trying to keep just a large gen pop area (without the timer ID approach) as well because its way more interactive and has way more possibilities on what to do. I still miss playing on Oracle.
Hugs
- Farquaar
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- Jonathan Gupta
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
time to redo the code and label it as my own doing.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:31 pmhttps://github.com/OracleStation/OracleStation/pull/419Farquaar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:51 pmPermabrig prisoners mixing with the regular brig prisoners? Now that's an idea I can get behind.Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 amRemember when that one server Oracle revamped all of security into gen pop where everyone got an ID and a prison timer attached to it in a communal area? That was pretty cool and interactive. Goon, Aurora and a couple others have a similar approach of trying to keep just a large gen pop area (without the timer ID approach) as well because its way more interactive and has way more possibilities on what to do. I still miss playing on Oracle.
- datorangebottle
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Datorangebottle
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
From an RP perspective, NT would want to capture as many corporate enemies as possible, to interrogate and experiment on them.
From a gameplay perspective, being permanently killed because you got caught by sec kinda sucks. Having any opportunity to get back into the round is preferable, and if you don't agree, you can suicide or ghost while in perma.
Make perma much harder to escape without outside help, so that security has a reason to actually use it. Apparently(and i don't really know how), perma is really easy to get out of. At least, that's what I hear every time this discussion happens. Currently, sec just executes people in the middle of the brig(not even using the re-education room), or forceborgs them. From an AI player's perspective, this is garbage and motivates me to lock down / stop cooperating with security. Giving them more nonharmful ways to deal with captives would be great.
Also, make it so that sec gets graded on the round-end report on what % of the antagonists were killed, captured alive, and evacuated in cuffs at the end of the shift. Just a couple lines summary and maybe a gigantic greentext if they managed to defeat everyone and capture some of them alive. Might help motivate some of them to try and be a bit better than the scum they're arresting.
From a gameplay perspective, being permanently killed because you got caught by sec kinda sucks. Having any opportunity to get back into the round is preferable, and if you don't agree, you can suicide or ghost while in perma.
Make perma much harder to escape without outside help, so that security has a reason to actually use it. Apparently(and i don't really know how), perma is really easy to get out of. At least, that's what I hear every time this discussion happens. Currently, sec just executes people in the middle of the brig(not even using the re-education room), or forceborgs them. From an AI player's perspective, this is garbage and motivates me to lock down / stop cooperating with security. Giving them more nonharmful ways to deal with captives would be great.
Also, make it so that sec gets graded on the round-end report on what % of the antagonists were killed, captured alive, and evacuated in cuffs at the end of the shift. Just a couple lines summary and maybe a gigantic greentext if they managed to defeat everyone and capture some of them alive. Might help motivate some of them to try and be a bit better than the scum they're arresting.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
- Nabski
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Some people should be permabanned from every role except clown and prisoner, but not permanently banned.
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
This is a sick idea.datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:38 pm Also, make it so that sec gets graded on the round-end report on what % of the antagonists were killed, captured alive, and evacuated in cuffs at the end of the shift. Just a couple lines summary and maybe a gigantic greentext if they managed to defeat everyone and capture some of them alive. Might help motivate some of them to try and be a bit better than the scum they're arresting.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- datorangebottle
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Datorangebottle
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I mean, it makes sense. We're already checking if the antag escaped alive, escaped without handcuffs, was stranded, or was killed. Would just need to slap together a scoring system.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
- Pandarsenic
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
If sec is basically the Valids Department already, might as well let them earn greentext for taking them alive.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Bawhoppennn
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
The current version of Permabrig is not supposed to be escapable without outside intervention or unless some circumstance in the round changes. It's can currently be considered an oversight that people can escape consistently on their own as is.
As for the philosophy behind it: from an RP perspective it makes sense to keep prisoners alive for intelligence, or free labor.
For an OOC perspective it is even more important: Giving players a chance to play still even if they didn't succeed as an antag is a good thing, just another field of depth for the game. Furthermore, having people remain alive adds a lot of potential intrigue for the round as a whole (such as prison break, antags on the loose again, sec manhunt for them, killings, using prisoners for stuff, parole, etc etc)
From a view of sportsmanship as well, it's just better to try and keep giving people a chance to not be round-removed. Although I think some people are far too worried about that ever happening (it should be a possibility, losing is part of the game and we should not freak out whenever it happens), still is something that we can be considerate about.
About the idea of mixing perma & non-perma prisoners, I have always been very open to that option personally. It was discussed with mild length when prisoners and expanded permabrigs were first added, however we didn't proceed because of the code required and not wanting to change too much at once. It would totally be a brilliant idea to mix timerbrig and permabrig though for a lot of reasons: player interaction between prisoners (due to more population), potential for escape, potential for contraband smuggling, something for sec to do, more interesting than sitting in tiny timerbrig, etc. I am all for it.
I haven't checked out the Oracle version, but I know it would require some method to easily separate prisoners whose times are running up, as well as an easier way to strip and prep temporary prisoners for the brig (though not too easy, want some potential for sec officers to miss things). Also we would probably have to remove the Gulag, since our brigging options are already a bit too far spread out as is.
(All of this is said from a Manuel perspective)
As for the philosophy behind it: from an RP perspective it makes sense to keep prisoners alive for intelligence, or free labor.
For an OOC perspective it is even more important: Giving players a chance to play still even if they didn't succeed as an antag is a good thing, just another field of depth for the game. Furthermore, having people remain alive adds a lot of potential intrigue for the round as a whole (such as prison break, antags on the loose again, sec manhunt for them, killings, using prisoners for stuff, parole, etc etc)
From a view of sportsmanship as well, it's just better to try and keep giving people a chance to not be round-removed. Although I think some people are far too worried about that ever happening (it should be a possibility, losing is part of the game and we should not freak out whenever it happens), still is something that we can be considerate about.
About the idea of mixing perma & non-perma prisoners, I have always been very open to that option personally. It was discussed with mild length when prisoners and expanded permabrigs were first added, however we didn't proceed because of the code required and not wanting to change too much at once. It would totally be a brilliant idea to mix timerbrig and permabrig though for a lot of reasons: player interaction between prisoners (due to more population), potential for escape, potential for contraband smuggling, something for sec to do, more interesting than sitting in tiny timerbrig, etc. I am all for it.
I haven't checked out the Oracle version, but I know it would require some method to easily separate prisoners whose times are running up, as well as an easier way to strip and prep temporary prisoners for the brig (though not too easy, want some potential for sec officers to miss things). Also we would probably have to remove the Gulag, since our brigging options are already a bit too far spread out as is.
(All of this is said from a Manuel perspective)
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
- Shadowflame909
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Imagine if perma-brig could get some sort of upgrade that disabled antagonist abilities temporarily as long as the antagonist were in it. Maybe it'd be used more often, thus adding more justification to make it cooler if players use it more.
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- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Say that to my closed git issue https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/62163Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:07 pm The current version of Permabrig is not supposed to be escapable without outside intervention or unless some circumstance in the round changes. It's can currently be considered an oversight that people can escape consistently on their own as is.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- Bawhoppennn
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
It seems like they closed that because of the nebulous nature of this issue. They probably want to prioritize the issue tracker for actual concrete bugs, rather than an issue that could stay open forever if you make a certain argument.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:46 pmSay that to my closed git issue https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/62163Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:07 pm The current version of Permabrig is not supposed to be escapable without outside intervention or unless some circumstance in the round changes. It's can currently be considered an oversight that people can escape consistently on their own as is.
I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
- NoxVS
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Replace permabrig with a bunch of VR chambers you can stick people in and make them do on-rail drone/cyborg stuff. Have them control like a kitchen bot that would stab you to death if it wasn't trapped to the confines of the kitchen. No laws or anything
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
- Misdoubtful
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
One server did this with borgs that would be mind controlled and used to mine.
Last edited by Misdoubtful on Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hugs
- Itseasytosee2me
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Then, my man, it's never going to get "fixed" if people don't recognize it as an issue. Which they obviously don't (myself included)Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:07 pm It seems like they closed that because of the nebulous nature of this issue. They probably want to prioritize the issue tracker for actual concrete bugs, rather than an issue that could stay open forever if you make a certain argument.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- Bawhoppennn
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- Github Username: Bawhoppen
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I will look into hardening up perma from internal escape attempts this weekend. The windows can be made more secure, and we can remove Left4Zed from the biogen to make acquiring bluespace tomatoes a lot more rare.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:29 amThen, my man, it's never going to get "fixed" if people don't recognize it as an issue. Which they obviously don't (myself included)Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:07 pm It seems like they closed that because of the nebulous nature of this issue. They probably want to prioritize the issue tracker for actual concrete bugs, rather than an issue that could stay open forever if you make a certain argument.
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I consider myself a /tg/station historian. If you're interested in the server history at all, feel free to ask me and I'll try and get you an answer! #ConcurForever
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
<KorMobile> you're a hero
[21:20:53] <%oranges> Baw "has cute legs" hoppen
DEAD: ADMIN(Owegno) says, "Nothing lewd happens in adminbus sadly."
[07:13:57] <Rockdtben> Keep in mind that I'm an extremely successful and wealthy male in his late twenties.
(F) DEAD: Professor DonkPocket says, "Admins preventchaos with good messages"
OOC: Pogoman122: Fun fact if someone trespasses on your kitchen just turn them into a nugget
<+KorPhaeron> russians have no souls so magic enrages them
<+KorPhaeron> people who don't like rng are not from /tg/ and are likely redditors
ausops wrote:apart from this there is literally nothing more to say other than that this is the first thread in five years to have achieved something.
- sinfulbliss
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
- Byond Username: SinfulBliss
- Location: prisoner re-education chamber
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Permabrig is pretty much only useful for roundstart prisoners. If they're an antag, permabrig is a terrible idea as they'll escape in 5-10 minutes and be on the loose again. If they're a serial tider/shitter, gulag is the better option since once again they'll just space permabrig in 10 minutes.
If it were made inescapable it might be an option instead of execution, but it'd need to be worlds more secure than it is now for any sec to consider using it.
If it were made inescapable it might be an option instead of execution, but it'd need to be worlds more secure than it is now for any sec to consider using it.
Spoiler:
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- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I've had a great deal of experience in the permabrig over the years and I can safely say the only interesting thing to do while in perma is to escape. Everything else is boring and lame. The permabrig should be designed around trying to escape while executions and forced borgings should be limited to prisoners who have proven too dangerous to keep alive. This would make rounds more interesting and give permabrigged players a second chance instead of wasting their time with pointless busywork. I don't know why you'd want to make it more difficult to do unless it's actually as bad as sinfulbliss is suggesting, which I haven't witnessed.Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:33 amI will look into hardening up perma from internal escape attempts this weekend. The windows can be made more secure, and we can remove Left4Zed from the biogen to make acquiring bluespace tomatoes a lot more rare.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:29 amThen, my man, it's never going to get "fixed" if people don't recognize it as an issue. Which they obviously don't (myself included)Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:07 pm It seems like they closed that because of the nebulous nature of this issue. They probably want to prioritize the issue tracker for actual concrete bugs, rather than an issue that could stay open forever if you make a certain argument.
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technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- Pandarsenic
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
- Byond Username: Pandarsenic
- Location: AI Upload
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
No amount of securing permabrig will make LRP sec use it over immediate execution in the current security culture. I basically never even see forced borging for antags, regardless of what they did or didn't do, executed before or after.
Hell, I never even really see voluntary borgtime offered. It's usually just summary execution valid time.
Hell, I never even really see voluntary borgtime offered. It's usually just summary execution valid time.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- datorangebottle
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Datorangebottle
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I'm thinking double-layered plasmaglass windows and reinforced walls, personally. You should need some kind of explosive to crack that shit open in a timely manner.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:18 pm Permabrig is pretty much only useful for roundstart prisoners. If they're an antag, permabrig is a terrible idea as they'll escape in 5-10 minutes and be on the loose again. If they're a serial tider/shitter, gulag is the better option since once again they'll just space permabrig in 10 minutes.
If it were made inescapable it might be an option instead of execution, but it'd need to be worlds more secure than it is now for any sec to consider using it.
Also should make it much harder to get weapons from within perma itself.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I would greatly recommend that you play a round or two as a prisoner and try your best to escape without help before spending your time on a PR.datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:28 pm I'm thinking double-layered plasmaglass windows and reinforced walls, personally. You should need some kind of explosive to crack that shit open in a timely manner.
Also should make it much harder to get weapons from within perma itself.
In my opinion, the perfect permabrig Looks like this.
- Difficult and risky to break out of on your own without smuggled goods.
- Incredibly difficult to break out if being surveyed by the warden.
- Should feel tactile and manipulable just like everything else in the game,(not a babyproofed room with reinforced computer frames)
- With smuggled gear/ a friend on the outside escaping should be easy outside of interference from sec.
I think we tick a few of these boxes at the moment, but I would be careful that you don't untick one as you tick another. I.E don't make it more difficult to escape by making the chairs out of foam they can't smash shit with them.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
This would actually be really funny tbh
Everything is sprited to have round fluffy corners and bright colours
Little smiley posters encouraging non-violence
Padded toolboxes with nonfunctional rubber tools that have the edges filed off
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- Tearling
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
- Byond Username: Tearling
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I agree with this, and would like to point out that most permabrigs can be easily broken out by mutating tomatoes into bluespace tomatoes, and then just getting a little lucky.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:09 pm In my opinion, the perfect permabrig Looks like this.
- Difficult and risky to break out of on your own without smuggled goods.
- Incredibly difficult to break out if being surveyed by the warden.
If it was up to me, remove tomatoes/bananas from all default perma gardens (I believe bananas are already not included in any of them) and give the prisoners an oven/grill to at least somewhat encourage cooking activities rather than breaking out activities.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
- EuSouAFazenda
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:34 pm
- Byond Username: EuSouAFazenda
- Location: Brazil
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
I remade the beach away mission
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Because they work for an organization that literally seeks to destroy Nanotrasen and feast upon its carcass.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:39 pm Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
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- terranaut
- Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
- Byond Username: Terranaut
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
what better way to flex on them than to take their special agents and make them clean it up, jannieFarquaar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:12 pmBecause they work for an organization that literally seeks to destroy Nanotrasen and feast upon its carcass.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:39 pm Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
- Stickymayhem
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
- Byond Username: Stickymayhem
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I have the objectively correct take so I don't need to read the thread. Here's how you use the permabrig:
Gear-based antags: You confiscate their shit, slap a tracking implant or pacifism on them and send them out if they are chill while being arrested (no all caps screaming the n-word or just blanking out)
Dangerous murder antags: If they're not being hyperviolent cunts negotiate. If they are being a hyperviolent cunt gib em.
Shitters: First infraction, warning and parole marking. If they get brigged again for being a shitter, permabrig.
Antags are obligated to be fucking annoying assholes. Shitters choose to be annoying assholes. Keep the game fun, the objective of security is not to speedrun every shift into extended. Punish the antag, make their life significantly harder, send them back out and if they're clever enough to cause trouble again they deserved to continue to be in the round to do so.
I will accept no arguments this is how you play security. I will be banned on this hill I don't care.
Gear-based antags: You confiscate their shit, slap a tracking implant or pacifism on them and send them out if they are chill while being arrested (no all caps screaming the n-word or just blanking out)
Dangerous murder antags: If they're not being hyperviolent cunts negotiate. If they are being a hyperviolent cunt gib em.
Shitters: First infraction, warning and parole marking. If they get brigged again for being a shitter, permabrig.
Antags are obligated to be fucking annoying assholes. Shitters choose to be annoying assholes. Keep the game fun, the objective of security is not to speedrun every shift into extended. Punish the antag, make their life significantly harder, send them back out and if they're clever enough to cause trouble again they deserved to continue to be in the round to do so.
I will accept no arguments this is how you play security. I will be banned on this hill I don't care.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
- kieth4
- In-Game Head Admin
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
- Byond Username: Kieth4
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Sticky is wrong. Perma is when you have a traitor but don't want to kill them for whatever reason so you chuck them in and have peace for like the 10 mins it takes them to escape.
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Any good agent would use every ounce of their freedom to fight against nanotrasen. What makes you think they'll just shrug their shoulders and give up and become "one of the good guys"terranaut wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:40 pmwhat better way to flex on them than to take their special agents and make them clean it up, jannieFarquaar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:12 pmBecause they work for an organization that literally seeks to destroy Nanotrasen and feast upon its carcass.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:39 pm Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- FantasticFwoosh
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
- Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Oraclestation had the right idea, i mirror that opinion here in this thread. However the whole entire way that prison is portrayed in not least not grounded way, is being essentially round removal for the longest time by boxing a player inside a spacious wall cavity to be forgot about which is reflected in policy rulings throughout the years.
Oracle just lets them go when they're done and removes a lot of the confrontation from holding cells to people who really OUGHT to be in the clink and not serving 32 minute holding cell time, the risk mainly to going to prison can be especially from other prisoners which should quickly deter people when fresh-meat gets thrown in there for being a shitter. A actual prisoner punishment considerable is isolated confinement, which is how the entire area is being treated (should i really say department? Is prison seperate to security in totality really if you need prison officers?) when really its only a particular set of circumstances prisoners should be returning to their cells of a eucilidian nighttime with enforcement to try and offer a routine, mainly to get the idea they are in prison, and not a daycare either.
Overall, the procedure of putting people in the station's prison should be more routine, there should be non-unified groups of roundstart prisoners to prevent cohesive -tide prison breaks (this can be managed by the prison staff themselves, perhaps detrimental behaviour of 1 prisoner could have some instant reprecussions of privileges like food, or luxury machines turn offable at a button switch/extended forced time in cells) a lightly screened leaving check to flag up outgoing shivs and contraband, and protected ways of smuggling in contraband in like a prisoner food teleporter straight from the kitchen.
Oracle just lets them go when they're done and removes a lot of the confrontation from holding cells to people who really OUGHT to be in the clink and not serving 32 minute holding cell time, the risk mainly to going to prison can be especially from other prisoners which should quickly deter people when fresh-meat gets thrown in there for being a shitter. A actual prisoner punishment considerable is isolated confinement, which is how the entire area is being treated (should i really say department? Is prison seperate to security in totality really if you need prison officers?) when really its only a particular set of circumstances prisoners should be returning to their cells of a eucilidian nighttime with enforcement to try and offer a routine, mainly to get the idea they are in prison, and not a daycare either.
Overall, the procedure of putting people in the station's prison should be more routine, there should be non-unified groups of roundstart prisoners to prevent cohesive -tide prison breaks (this can be managed by the prison staff themselves, perhaps detrimental behaviour of 1 prisoner could have some instant reprecussions of privileges like food, or luxury machines turn offable at a button switch/extended forced time in cells) a lightly screened leaving check to flag up outgoing shivs and contraband, and protected ways of smuggling in contraband in like a prisoner food teleporter straight from the kitchen.
Spoiler:
- Qbopper
- Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
- Byond Username: Qbopper
- Github Username: Qbopper
- Location: Canada
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
they're a fucked up megacorp that have no concept of worrying about moralityItseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:03 amAny good agent would use every ounce of their freedom to fight against nanotrasen. What makes you think they'll just shrug their shoulders and give up and become "one of the good guys"terranaut wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:40 pmwhat better way to flex on them than to take their special agents and make them clean it up, jannieFarquaar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:12 pmBecause they work for an organization that literally seeks to destroy Nanotrasen and feast upon its carcass.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:39 pm Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
they would absolutely install a thing in your brain that makes you unable to fight against them
Limey wrote:its too late.
- EuSouAFazenda
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:34 pm
- Byond Username: EuSouAFazenda
- Location: Brazil
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
No janitor is "one of the good guys".Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:03 amAny good agent would use every ounce of their freedom to fight against nanotrasen. What makes you think they'll just shrug their shoulders and give up and become "one of the good guys"terranaut wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:40 pmwhat better way to flex on them than to take their special agents and make them clean it up, jannieFarquaar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:12 pmBecause they work for an organization that literally seeks to destroy Nanotrasen and feast upon its carcass.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:39 pm Why can't we just implant them, give a mop and bucket and say go
I remade the beach away mission
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
My point is I think that the syndicate rehabilitation rate would be astronomical low and have potentially disastrous consequences, both in lore and, more importantly, in game.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
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- sinfulbliss
- Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
- Byond Username: SinfulBliss
- Location: prisoner re-education chamber
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Yup this is the correct take.
Perma not being "perma" is kind of weird. Plasmaglass instead of rglass would make it much more usable.
Spoiler:
- Stickymayhem
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
- Byond Username: Stickymayhem
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
perma is designed to be escapeable that's the pointsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:24 pmYup this is the correct take.
Perma not being "perma" is kind of weird. Plasmaglass instead of rglass would make it much more usable.
Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
- Misdoubtful
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
- Byond Username: Misdoubtful
- Location: Delivering hugs!
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
This is the entire reason I posted the historical gen pop pr. No one wants to sit in a box doing nothing.
Hugs
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
You can still escape with blue-space plants, or via ghetto thermite then flush yourself down disposals. Also, I think plasma glass would look really out of place.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:24 pmYup this is the correct take.
Perma not being "perma" is kind of weird. Plasmaglass instead of rglass would make it much more usable.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
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-
- Forum Soft Banned
- Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
I don't think it was designed to be escapable. At least, it never used to be. It was meant to be the equivalent of a game over screen, except one where the player could plant some boring-ass plants in complete isolation and be forgotten about. Things like improvised weaponry and the addition of stuff for the prisoner role has just made it easier to escape. Which is a good thing, the permabrig is shit. It sucks for the player and it sucks for the round. Sticky is right.
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
- Byond Username: Rectification
- Location: Space Station 13
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Linking: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/62966 relates to common prison idea.
Cool, probably best to be tried out on tram. (can't make the map any worse huh?)
I like to think it was inspired by this thread.
Cool, probably best to be tried out on tram. (can't make the map any worse huh?)
I like to think it was inspired by this thread.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
- TheFinalPotato
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
- Byond Username: LemonInTheDark
Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
Anti-tram posters are a scourge on society
- Armhulen
- Global Moderator
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- Byond Username: Armhulenn
- Github Username: bazelart
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Re: Lets talk about the point of permabrig
i hope it doesn't leave tramstation. it's a super cool unique mapping element and challenge for those on the map, i adore that
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