[Pandarsenic] Qunk - engi ban

[Qunk]

BYOND account: Qunk
Character name: Kolton Collins
Ban type: Engineer roles
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: "Banned from Roles: Chief Engineer, engineering, Station Engineer, Atmospheric Technician permanently - Less than a month since your last TWO disposals-related jobbans/warnings, which were in turn less than a month since another one, rerouted general station disposals into an infinite loop. No better reason than "i dunno man to be honest i got bored" for it. If you can't save this behavior for when you're an actual antag, you just can't be allowed around RPDs. Please appeal this in the future if you feel that you have learned to contain your need to make dangerous disposals rigs as a nonantagonist."
Time ban was placed: 2022-06-02 01:01:21
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 184185
Your side of the story: It's been quite a while since the ban so I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember two things: At the time I had been (relatively) harmlessly experimenting with disposals so I could build more elaborate and deadly traps when I rolled antag (which I assume is what I was doing at the time of the ban), and I remember believing the infinite disposals loop I made would be fine, as it didn't lead anywhere dangerous and could very easily be deconstructed, freeing everybody trapped inside with no harm done.
Why you think you should be unbanned: As explained, the "trap" was pretty harmless and at worst would act as a minor annoyance to people. Even if it was banworthy, 4 months (so far) seems a little extreme.
References of good conduct: Rarely play on other servers
Anything else we should know: Part of the ban message tried to establish a pattern of behavior by referencing previous events, multiple of which I believe to be misunderstood:
182655: my original plan was to kidnap new arrivals and take them on a (harmless) joyride with the mining shuttle, which went horribly wrong after someone launched it before I had unbolted the door from its open state
182495: that one was my bad, from what I remember I was testing if firelocks could hide chutes (might have been something else?)
181296: I set up a chute into the SM in an attempt to power it with items rather than lasers, didn't throw a single person in

[Pandarsenic]

The fact that you seem to think it's always Not That Bad or Someone Else's Fault indicates to me that if I lift this, you are simply going to continue building disposals traps as a nonantag.

The ban has lasted 4 months and counting because I looked at you and your history and thought, "This is a player who is going to immediately make more disposals traps if I don't make this perma-until-appeal."

You have proceeded to play 6 rounds in total since the jobban and, by your own admission, have not been playing elsewhere regularly.



In short, I am currently highly certain that if I lift this, you're going to resume making disposals traps because, by your own words, you seem completely convinced that every time it goes wrong, it's Not That Bad or it's somehow Someone Else's Fault. I would like you to prove me wrong, either by making your case here verbally or by actually playing on the server and doing normal stuff as a nonantag like everyone else does, but until that happens, I'm not going to be lifting this ban.

[Qunk]

The fact that you seem to think it's always Not That Bad or Someone Else's Fault indicates to me that if I lift this, you are simply going to continue building disposals traps as a nonantag.

The ban has lasted 4 months and counting because I looked at you and your history and thought, "This is a player who is going to immediately make more disposals traps if I don't make this perma-until-appeal."

You have proceeded to play 6 rounds in total since the jobban and, by your own admission, have not been playing elsewhere regularly.

In short, I am currently highly certain that if I lift this, you're going to resume making disposals traps because, by your own words, you seem completely convinced that every time it goes wrong, it's Not That Bad or it's somehow Someone Else's Fault. I would like you to prove me wrong, either by making your case here verbally or by actually playing on the server and doing normal stuff as a nonantag like everyone else does, but until that happens, I'm not going to be lifting this ban.

That's just the thing, is it really "that bad"? I struggle to see how (usually) harmless and creative traps are banworthy, especially when they are so easy to escape or avoid. Would a security officer be banned for jailing somebody for a minor offense? No, it happens all the time. Would a clown be banned for lubing up floors and causing chaos? No, that's their job. Why is it different for something equally, if not less, dangerous? If I built traps with the intention of hurting, killing, or getting people stuck permanently then I would understand, but that isn't what I'm doing. If I'm unbanned and make more of these in the future, I'll try to keep experiments to a contained area and make public traps more fun/interesting for those involved but otherwise it really is "Not That Bad"

And yeah, I haven't played in a while because engineer is the only role I can consistently have fun with.

[Pandarsenic]

If they repeatedly jail somebody for no offense, especially at random, they would be banned
They would also be banned for creating a contraption that jails people randomly
Your job is not to cause chaos and make the station less safe as an engineer, it is the opposite
Even for a clown there are limits on how much tide/grief is acceptable
"getting people stuck permanently" is quite literally what you did

Funny projects have to meet a basic standard of "What happens if everything goes perfectly right"

With nearly all of your traps, the answer is "A key part of the station [arrivals shuttle, the general disposals network, etc.] can no longer be used safely."

[Qunk]

Again my intent was and is never to hurt people, and if I'm unbanned the only traps I will make are ones with an fun/interesting gimmick like the mining shuttle one (although I'll failureproof them more) rather than just "aha! youre stuck in disposals for the next half hour unless an engineer decides to cut open the floor!"

[Pandarsenic]

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that you just don't make traps, at all, unless you're an antagonist.

[Qunk]

I think it is, especially if it's just once in a while. This is an LRP server, and cool gimmicks and fun ideas are a huge part of the fun. Again, I'll try to make sure in the future anything potentially harmful I do actually IS fun for those involved, but I've gotten away with (and seen others get away with) far worse on this server just because it followed the rule of cool and it didn't ruin anyone's fun.

[Pandarsenic]

I will deny this appeal for the time being. Show you can get some normal time on some other jobs and we'll see about reconsidering it.

[Qunk]

I remember a time just a month before my ban where the entire engineering team joined together in a cult to bring back Lord Singulo, in an event that pretty much destroyed half the station and ended the round. Despite not being antagonists, we gave plenty of warning to the crew with our chants and proclamations, and it was generally unique and fun so not a single person got in trouble. In fact, the admins (I presume it was the admins, maybe it was just a rare chance for singulo to turn into a pizza?) turned the singulo into a pizza and played pizza time as it wreaked havoc on the round. I understand if this type of thing isn't what you personally want as an admin, but from experiences like that in the past I operate under the assumption that that is generally how this servers rules are interpretted.

[Vekter]

I think it is, especially if it's just once in a while. This is an LRP server, and cool gimmicks and fun ideas are a huge part of the fun. Again, I'll try to make sure in the future anything potentially harmful I do actually IS fun for those involved, but I've gotten away with (and seen others get away with) far worse on this server just because it followed the rule of cool and it didn't ruin anyone's fun.

Disposal loops have always been considered verboten as a non-antag on LRP because they require the intervention of someone else or an admin to remove people from them and can sometimes cause bugs with people being stuck inside them even when they're deleted.

[Qunk]

By saying I wouldn't stop making "disposals traps" I meant any trap that used disposals, not necessarily clang loops (and earlier when I said I wouldn't make "aha! youre stuck in disposals for the next half hour unless an engineer decides to cut open the floor!" traps clang loops were what I meant)

[Pandarsenic]

I remember a time just a month before my ban where the entire engineering team joined together in a cult to bring back Lord Singulo, in an event that pretty much destroyed half the station and ended the round. Despite not being antagonists, we gave plenty of warning to the crew with our chants and proclamations, and it was generally unique and fun so not a single person got in trouble. In fact, the admins (I presume it was the admins, maybe it was just a rare chance for singulo to turn into a pizza?) turned the singulo into a pizza and played pizza time as it wreaked havoc on the round. I understand if this type of thing isn't what you personally want as an admin, but from experiences like that in the past I operate under the assumption that that is generally how this servers rules are interpretted.

Funny projects have to meet a basic standard of "What happens if everything goes perfectly right"

If you manage to actually contain a singularity, which I think may theoretically be possible still(?), you have an extremely cool thing and bragging rights beyond

And at least if you mess it up, the round isn't going to last much longer and the whole Engineering Department dies with you for trying it, because it was a group effort.

Now, here's where the issue is: if you do the Singulocult and make singularities that get loose with no antagonists involved frequently, it gets old pretty fast and you get told to Not Do That unless you're 100% sure you've figured out how to contain one on a private server. If you ignore the "Okay that's enough for now" warnings, you get a ban, because there are dozens of other people playing in the average round who are gonna get tired of what you're doing real fast. And if you're doing it solo, especially while people tell you to stop (double-especially if they're members of your department), that's the fastest route to a grief ban for basically blowing the station up without cause. I hope you can see how the goal, the number of people involved, the amount of RP around it, etc., affect the situation.

Let me emphasize, I don't want to keep this ban in place. It's just that no matter how hard I try, I cannot convince myself that you're going to do literally anything other than what you caught the ban for, and I cannot release those Engineering habits on the playerbase again in good conscience - largely because, deprived of that option, you chose to simply do nothing and not play SS13 at all.

[Qunk]

One of my points with that story is that I'm usually the type of guy who only does that stuff when it's interesting. As I've expressed over and over in this thread, I am sorry for doing lame clang loops out of boredom and I won't do that stuff again without a gimmick (and in the situation of me testing for future antag traps I'll make sure to warn people and free anyone who gets stuck).

[Qunk]

So, what's the verdict?

[Pandarsenic]

I see you've been getting some new rounds in. This is good! The ban stands but if you continue to play on your server of choice, and maintain a clean record throughout, you have my official approval to make an appeal whenever you feel you've adequately demonstrated that you're playing on the server normally (instead of the normal yearly limitation). You can check your activity levels at https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/Qunk if you're not sure how much you've been on the server. In a couple of weeks, maybe a month, whenever you feel like you've done that, make a new appeal with a story or two of memorable rounds and I'll lift the ban. Does that sound good?

[Pandarsenic]

Gonna hold this one back up until I get Qunk's answer there.

[Vekter]

Pandarsenic says you can open a new appeal whenever you feel ready for it.