[NecromancerAnne] avaster - rp issue

[avaster]

BYOND account: avaster
Character name: Monty Kalashnikov
Ban type: OOC
Ban length: 1 Day
Ban reason: During an altercation in which they were arrested for attempting to disposal flush an arrested engineer's modsuit, they returned to the arrested detective and shot them with a syringe full of poison. This situation, from their perspective, in response to the mishandling of their medical supplies during the arrest. The detective left the medical goods in their bag in the treatment center. They claimed they lost their bag, but it was apparently returned. They also were not very forthcoming about why they were initially in conflict with security. Please, review our escalation policy.
Time ban was placed: 2023-06-24 20:27:36
Server you were playing on when banned: Not sure, think it was Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed:
Why you think you should be unbanned: There was a medical patient who was insulting people, I took their modsuit and attempted to disposal flush it. I resisted arrest, I never laid hands on the officers initially, I was only running from them. When I was taken to the brig, the Detective took my entire bag which had chemicals that I was making for 30 minutes, and placed it in the middle of the hallway for anyone to take what they waant. They also took my syringe gun, which is a rare item and are very limited, sometimes only 2 on the entire station, and the research for rapid syringe gun usually doesn't get done in time. During the bwoink, the admin said I could 'just make the supplies again', but this requires a lot of time for the chemicals I was making, I was rightfully upset when I returned to medbay and my chemicals I worked hard for were stolen, and my syringe gun was in the middle for anyone to take. The admin claims it isnt negligence, but they took my bag and all my belongings, along with a rare item which I am allowed to have. This is the equivalent of stealing, but just giving it out to other people. If someone took something you worked hard for, along with a rare item and laid it out for anyone to take what they wanted, how would you feel? I personally think the note and ban was unfair, the officer made me lose my hard earned chemicals and almost my syringe gun due to their negligence, they refused to say a word to me & I didn't escalate, until they decided not to respond and leave my items for anyone to take.
Anything else we should know: I have an appeal ban on PD & the ban id is 66317

[EmpressMaia]

this was on sever manuel. in addition to shooting the dective with posion, they also shot me with poison when attempting to search their bag

[avaster]

they also shot me with poison when attempting to search their bag

i do not know the context to your situation nor recall who you are. i also think this is irrelevant to my own appeal, as the reason i was banned was to do with the detective, doesnt have anything to do you.

[sinfulbliss]

Escalating against shitsec is going to be an ic issue- you are free to escalate against security who are acting shitly. However, "shitseccery" is going to be held at admin discretion- for example, if you attack a security member and they ahelp it will be up to the admins to decide if your assault on them was legit and if they were acting as shitsec.

Relevant recent headmin ruling

[avaster]

Escalating against shitsec is going to be an ic issue- you are free to escalate against security who are acting shitly. However, "shitseccery" is going to be held at admin discretion- for example, if you attack a security member and they ahelp it will be up to the admins to decide if your assault on them was legit and if they were acting as shitsec.

Relevant recent headmin ruling

The problem I had with the situation wasnt in particular being shitsec, athough they were, the problem I had was that it was theft as they equivalently stole my belongings, just without them taking it themselves and laying it out for anyone to take it. just because they're security i dont believe this means they're exempt from these consequences

[NecromancerAnne]

Hi.

I'll start by addressing the inciting incident. You stole and tried to disposal the modsuit of an engineer who was in the middle of being arrested and treated in medbay. That is interfering with an arrest and actively antagonizing people in your department by making their jobs harder. You can, in fact, be arrested for this, and the detective was utilizing nonlethal force initially.

Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) stun attacked Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with the police baton (NEWHP: 96.3)

While in the midst of your escape, you opted to them try and make yourself more difficult to arrest by chugging the ephedrine you were going on about in your logs that people stole.

Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/ephedrine (9.4u, 0.75 purity)) from Ephedrine chemical patch (9.35875u) to Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 96.3)

You didn't just resist arrest, you made it significantly harder for someone to actually arrest you. The result was Emily, after a few more attempts at arresting you, and people joining in to stop you, then having to utilize lethal force and even the Head of Security had to be involved in order to arrest you.

07:09:23 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) fired at Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with .38 bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 38.3) <last bullet shot from Emily's revolver
07:09:37 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shoved Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) (NEWHP: 96.4) (83, 99, 2) Medbay Treatment Center < Presence of the HoS likely because of the engineer

Utilizing lethal force against anyone popping stimulants in response to an attempted arrest is entirely reasonable and makes you very, very much responsible for their actions. They started with nonlethal force, you proved to have used stimulants when that didn't work, and it escalated. This is still an entirely reasonable arrest given the incident being theft and interrupting an arrest on someone else entirely.

Your reasoning for why you were trying to steal the modsuit was that Lemon Lime, the engineer, was annoying, but I find that a flimsy justification given you were seemingly already prepared for what appears to be an altercation and just actively being ornery to everyone around you. And also because you lied to me about it being evident in their logs. It wasn't. I'll post those later.

After the roundstart of about 6:45:00, the chems you made with logs include a very quick mixing of triacid, which is relevant for later

07:03:28 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/hydrogen_peroxide (10u, 1 purity)) from the large beaker to [large beaker] (103, 100, 2) Pharmacy < used in Nitric Acid
07:03:32 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (10u, 0.919091 purity)) from the large beaker (flauro) to [large beaker] <Obviously, this is fluacid
07:05:53 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid (10u, 1 purity)) from the beaker to [large beaker] <We round out our triacid combo

In about the first 20 minutes of the round you already have a weapon as one of the first things you're making. All the while you're shoving around everyone you encounter it seems in medical and being vitriolic.

06:58:57 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shoved EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) (NEWHP: 100) (94, 104, 2) Medbay Central <security officer
07:07:51 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shoved Froggy0710/(Dan-Reet) (NEWHP: 100) (99, 105, 2) Pharmacy <Actual chemist

V Your only say logs before you chose to start an altercation with security.

06:47:30 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "shut up ai" (83, 90, 2) Medbay Storage
06:55:24 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "shut the fuck up" (103, 100, 2) Pharmacy
06:55:43 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "no" (103, 100, 2) Pharmacy
06:55:52 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "ai dont open" (103, 100, 2) Pharmacy
07:00:37 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "ai force power" (79, 94, 2) Medbay Storage
07:01:01 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "ai?"

I'm leaving out an altercation with an assistant here because I'm pretty sure they broke into the Pharmacy, that's fine, you can kick their ass, anyone would. Sec seemed to not give a shit either.

And by the time you're actively trying to cause problems with people, namely stealing items from people in medbay treatment, not more than minutes after making the acid, you show that you already have ephedrine ready and tried to use it in the conflict.

07:08:36 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/ephedrine (9.4u, 0.75 purity)) from Ephedrine chemical patch (9.35875u) to Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 96.3) (84, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center

Everything leads me to believe this is exactly what you wanted all along. You wanted to cause problems, and you wanted to escalate with someone in order to get into a fight with them. you had a syringe gun, you had a kill mix and you had an antistun ready for the eventuality that you actually got into an altercation. Your confusion with what server you were on makes sense, but I can assure you, people can't just do this on Terry either.

This is what is typically refered to as 'killbaiting'. Creating problems, getting someone to retaliate, and using that retaliation in order to escalate further into murder and get away with it. Unfortunately, you chose to do so against security. Security have metaprotections against people retaliating against them with regards to how they conduct their role. We expect security members, or whoever might be acting as such (detectives can be included or not included depending on how they choose to conduct themselves, and in this instance, they were included as they chose nonlethal arrest methods first), to use nonlethal force when arresting and be reasonable about their arrests.

The detective and security as a whole brigged you for 3 minutes total, Emily took your medical relevant supplies, and she put them back into medbay while you served your sentence. You already proved to be somewhat volatile, so I personally wouldn't have even bat an eye at an officer taking chemicals and chemical weapons from someone trying to make themselves more difficult to arrest and seemingly wanting to cause problems and just locking them in evidence. Instead, they gave the goods back to medbay as a whole, which I think is also an entirely reasonable approach. You weren't very forthcoming about what you meant by 'chems'. Your logs only mentioned ephedrine being taken, which, if you managed to mix that up in the first 20 minutes, probably suggests you actually have a degree of competency and could do it again (even if it wasn't very pure ephedrine).

So, you get out with some very colorful language on your way out and as you're approaching your attack on the detective

07:22:54 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "ligger" (112, 165, 2) Brig
07:25:46 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "i hate moths" (103, 100, 2) Pharmacy
07:26:46 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "ccunt" (111, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway <Here is you about to shoot the detective. Charming.

And your next action is to go get your syringe gun, get your triacid, and load up

07:24:59 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the large beaker to [syringe] (79, 94, 2) Medbay Storage

and then shoot the detective, the lawyer and the warden with the toxins, causing everyone in the halls and medbay to try and stop you.

Spoiler:

07:26:49 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at [red scrubbers pipe] with the syringe from Central Primary Hallway (111, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:52 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) stun attacked Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with the police baton (NEWHP: 100) (103, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:58 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (105, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:58 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at [red scrubbers pipe] with the syringe from Central Primary Hallway (105, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:58 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) fired at Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with .38 bullet from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 100) (101, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:59 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) shot Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 100) (100, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:59 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) suffered: Minor Breakage to chest | Damage: 25 (rolled 82/90.5975) | WB: -35 (105, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:59 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shot Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) with the syringe REAGENTS: Fluorosulfuric Acid, 4.99997 | Nitric Acid, 4.99997 | Sulfuric Acid, 4.99997 (NEWHP: 100) (106, 115, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:26:59 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) fired at Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with .38 bullet from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 75) (100, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:01 ATTACK Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) shot Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 78.5) (107, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:02 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at [floor] with the syringe from Central Primary Hallway (110, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:02 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (110, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:03 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shot Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) with the syringe REAGENTS: Fluorosulfuric Acid, 4.99997 | Nitric Acid, 4.99997 | Sulfuric Acid, 4.99997 (NEWHP: 42.3) (111, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:06 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) with the syringe from Central Primary Hallway (NEWHP: -16.4) (106, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:06 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (106, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:06 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shot Thunder12345/(Emily Vargas) with the syringe REAGENTS: Fluorosulfuric Acid, 4.99997 | Nitric Acid, 4.99997 | Sulfuric Acid, 4.99997 (NEWHP: -16.4) (105, 114, 2) Central Primary Hallway
07:27:24 ATTACK Jezzared/(Phoebe Wildspark) shoved Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 74) (97, 107, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:25 ATTACK Jezzared/(Phoebe Wildspark) shoved Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 74) (97, 105, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:26 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (94, 105, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:26 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shot Jezzared/(Phoebe Wildspark) with the syringe REAGENTS: Fluorosulfuric Acid, 4.99997 | Nitric Acid, 4.99997 | Sulfuric Acid, 4.99997 (NEWHP: 96.3) (94, 105, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:26 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at [Pharmacy] with the syringe from Medbay Central (94, 105, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:26 ATTACK Jezzared/(Phoebe Wildspark) shoved Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with causing him to drop the medical syringe gun (NEWHP: 74.2) (95, 105, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:40 ATTACK NicoDeLuna/(Nico DeLuna) shoved Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 75.8) (90, 87, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:43 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shoved NicoDeLuna/(Nico DeLuna) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) (89, 96, 2) Medbay Central
07:27:47 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shoved Jezzared/(Phoebe Wildspark) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 2.6) (90, 104, 2) Medbay Central
07:28:19 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/ephedrine (9.4u, 0.75 purity)) from Ephedrine chemical patch (9.35875u) to Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 72.7) (82, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:26 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/ephedrine (9.4u, 0.75 purity)) from Ephedrine chemical patch (9.35875u) to Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 72.7) (82, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:38 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) applied Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with the medical gel (libital) /datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (12u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/granibitaluri (18u, 1 purity) (NEWHP: 75.7) (81, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:38 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (4u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/granibitaluri (6u, 1 purity)) from the medical gel (libital) to Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 75.7) (81, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:44 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) stun attacked Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 82.7) (81, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:49 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u, 0.919091 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/acid/nitracid (5u, 0.796699 purity) and /datum/reagent/toxin/acid (5u, 1 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (80, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:49 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) fired at [floor] with the syringe from Medbay Treatment Center (80, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:49 ATTACK Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) shot EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) with the syringe REAGENTS: Fluorosulfuric Acid, 4.99997 | Nitric Acid, 4.99997 | Sulfuric Acid, 4.99997 (NEWHP: 99.6) (80, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:49 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) stun attacked Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 91.5) (80, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:50 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) attacked Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 83) (80, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:52 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) attempted to handcuff Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 84.4) (79, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:53 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) grabbed Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) passive grab (NEWHP: 84.4) (79, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:55 ATTACK EmpressMaia/(Maia Roentgen) handcuffed Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) (NEWHP: 90.8) (79, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center

You are popping stimulants that you claim you had stolen, but clearly got back. You shot the detective, you shot the lawyer who was just shoving you, and you shot another officer who was not the subject of your escalation at all and was trying to arrest you for attempted murder on two people.

This is a textbook case of over escalation into self-antagonism. You said you fired a 'warning shot', but you get slapped with a baton and fire back with lethal force again. I know what is in those syringes. You cannot play off them as 'warning shots'. The detective cannot assume it is warning shots either.

This entire incident probably left everyone convinced you were evil, but in reality you are just obviously only focused on creating scenarios that allow you to attempt to kill people.

On top of that, you leave some pretty ominous statements of intent once you actually get arrested

07:28:31 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "no" (83, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:43 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "no" (80, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:28:56 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "you're gonna die" (80, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:29:01 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "those chems are bad for your health" (79, 100, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
07:29:32 SAY Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov) "you wont find det" (84, 93, 2) Medbay Storage

I chose to give you a day ban because of your playtime. I don't believe at any point have you been honest about your approach and behaviour, either to me or towards your fellow players, and you are obviously overly focused on trying to cause scenarios where in you find yourself in violent altercations.

[2023-06-24 19:30:54.066] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #3: Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Well basically they took my bag, stole my syringe gun and stole all my medkits, I then approached them and shot nearby with a syringe gun where they tried to stun me down so i shot them for real with the syringe gun
[2023-06-24 19:32:16.877] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #3: Avaster/(Monty Kalashnikov)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): They also decided to shoot me in medbay, and they stole my syringe gun because they wanted to. They had literally no specific reason, they just felt like it. so i was reasonably upset
[2023-06-24 19:34:12.851] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #3: Avaster/(Darcey Matthews)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Assault on an officer, which that only happened after they stole my chemical <I asked if there was anything that would result in the incident happening, like whether you stole anything or anything that would reuslt in an arrest. I already knew the full context of what lead up to this

[2023-06-24 19:38:29.610] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->Avaster/(Darcey Matthews): There is another event that you've not brought up yet but two other people can verify that makes your arrest a legitimate one. You stole and tried to disposal flush an engineer's modsuit. Does this sound accurate to you?
[2023-06-24 19:38:55.231] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #3: Avaster/(Darcey Matthews)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Yes they insulted everyone, you may check logs. they were being a complete dickhead <They didn't, you are lying to me here, they have absolutely no logs that weren't clearly directed towards either engineering, the AI or Emily who had arrested them over the supermatter.
[2023-06-24 19:39:14.295] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #3: Avaster/(Darcey Matthews)->NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow): Although im not entirely sure how this is relevant

So the inciting incident of all this, the theft of the modsuit, was quite literally just a random theft. You are looking for a fight, and you are acting dishonest even to someone who literally could and did check the logs and found you to be dishonest. Which you requested as a means of proving your innocence.

You are either wasting my time or you aren't even conscious of the things you do. Either buck up and calm down now, while you have the opportunity to swing this around, or please go somewhere else, because I can't imagine any other admin tolerating another incident like this, including myself. I'm denying the appeal, the note stays as is. Headmins can overturn, but I think I've rationalized this enough.

[Vekter]

Hey y'all, it's been a few days with no response. If nothing else has been said in 24 hours I'm gonna move it on.

[Timberpoes]

The player has declined to continue participation in this appeal following the admin's response.

No headmin input will be given and NecroAnne's decision stands on its own merits.