[CharleyQuinn] Prussen - Positive Note Removal Appeal

[Prussen]

BYOND account: Prussen
Character name: Plazz Fire-Mckendrick
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Permanent?
Ban reason: "Played as an Admiral on round 206624. Did some great RP, stepped up to the task. Thank you for your help! -CharleyQuinn"
Time ban was placed: 2023-05-22 05:26:28
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 206654

Your side of the story: The note was placed for me participating in an event hosted by CharleyQuinn and was later removed for no reisin over a conversation on Discord.

Since most of the evidence here is from a discord conversation, I will place links pertaining to the message being referenced, since all of this transpired on the TG Discord.

On 2023-05-22 I participated in an event with the role of admiral, our goal being to strong arm the station's captain into signing a contract with ridiculous terms (ex. giving their soul to Nanotrasen). We were able to succeed and received his signature. All was well and good, however during the extraction Nanotrasen did not respond to any of our communications, creating a very chaotic situation in which no-one knew what they were doing, which will come into play later.

Yesterday (2023-07-21) I was having a conversation on #tgstation-general with a few people and the topic of notes came up. I made a joking remark that I had not received a singular negative note in over a thousand hours of play and had only gained a positive one. Then I went on to state that I should have been given an antag token for my participation in the event mentioned.

(the conversation: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 5186084914)

A user decided to take my remarks literally and pinged the event runner who had signed themselves on the note (CharleyQuinn)

(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 3114792980)

Thinking that nothing would come of this, my conversation with another member continued. But then CharleyQuinn would respond to the user and myself, telling me that they could remove the note if I don't want it. Which is something I had never mentioned wanting and would go on to oppose.

(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 5683293204)

Then I continued talking about the antag token jokingly (as insinuated by my use of triple periods...). CharleyQuinn decided to take this sarcasm as a "yes" even though I had never mentioned wanting the note removed.



(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 7611241532)

I continued talking about how we were "left on read" by Nanotrasen during the event to explain why I thought the event was not optimal. I then said I would have wanted a token over a note and CharleyQuinn stated that "That means deleting it...", telling me that I can appeal to get it back.



(The conversation: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 9687345242)

User "starman" (fairyneedles) correctly tells me that its "So joevrr..." because CharleyQuinn had already decided my ultimate fate, the removal of my 2nd and last note... Later logging on and removing it.



(The removal of the note: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 7000584284)

Admin conradthunderbunch correctly affirmed that this was total admin ABUSE.

(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 2082518016)

Why you think you should be unbanned: Res ipsa loquitur, Latin for "the thing speaks for itself", it is clear that this note removal was done out of COMPLETE malicious intent, there was absolutely zero reisin to remove the note. I had never complained about its existence, I had never went to the event runner to ask for an adjustment and I had never in the conversation stated that I wished for its ultimate removal. CharleyQuinn might have simply wanted to punish me for the inconvenience caused by having to open Discord to reply to a ping from a user who wasn't even myself.

I feel not for the note, but for tg/station/, how can we let badmins like CharleyQuinn trample upon our note history because they were slightly inconvenienced? I feel that the re-introduction of this note to my account would make things right once more, and perhaps CharleyQuinn will learn her lesson...

References of good conduct: 1000 hours with not a single bad note, the first and only one being at 25 hours playtime!!!

[Chadley]

We're a few layers deep, so you'll have to excuse how muddled this is. But, this is a ban appeal, and as such I'll handle it with as much professionalism as any other appeal deserves and save the ravings for the peanut.

I removed the note on the basis that nice notes exist to encourage good player conduct and empower people to take admin events, not to encourage token granting or similar.

Yesterday (2023-07-21) I was having a conversation on #tgstation-general with a few people and the topic of notes came up. I made a joking remark that I had not received a singular negative note in over a thousand hours of play and had only gained a positive one. Then I went on to state that I should have been given an antag token for my participation in the event mentioned.

(the conversation: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 5186084914)

A user decided to take my remarks literally and pinged the event runner who had signed themselves on the note (CharleyQuinn)

(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 3114792980)

During the time this was placed, I was an event runner and not an admin, Fikou placed the note as he was the supervising admin alongside Kieth4, which accounts for this portion.

Thinking that nothing would come of this, my conversation with another member continued. But then CharleyQuinn would respond to the user and myself, telling me that they could remove the note if I don't want it. Which is something I had never mentioned wanting and would go on to oppose.

(The message: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 5683293204)

Then I continued talking about the antag token jokingly (as insinuated by my use of triple periods...). CharleyQuinn decided to take this sarcasm as a "yes" even though I had never mentioned wanting the note removed.

Nice notes aren't often given out, and as such I'd like them to keep that innocence of a pat on the head and a 'good job sport', rather than some bargaining device, even as a joke.


This really comes down to a matter of how much you fucked around, and consequently, found out.

I feel that the re-introduction of this note to my account would make things right once more, and perhaps CharleyQuinn will learn her lesson...

I'll take the cue that three dots means you're joking and try one of my own.

I will revert the note back to the original with a token...

► Show Spoiler

I will not.

In conclusion, we no longer accept ban requests.

[Prussen]

Nice notes aren't often given out, and as such I'd like them to keep that innocence of a pat on the head and a 'good job sport', rather than some bargaining device, even as a joke.

This implies that I was actively reaching out for an antag token, which I was not. I never asked for one and only jokingly suggested it in a conversation over notes which did not involve you. A random person decided to involve you, also in a joking manner (based on their tone), seemingly mocking my proposal.

I never meant for my messages to be taken in such a manner and perhaps I was not clear enough that I was not asking for a substitution of the note for a token (I don't even have most antags enabled to begin with - outside of the team antags). I must apologize if that was the perception since things get muddy over text but I never even really saw a benefit to replacing my note which will stand the test of time in favour of a measly a one time use token.

According to your chart of fuck around and find out...

...my actions can be judged as a low 0-1, there was little to no risk involved in me flaunting my perfect note history and (JOKINGLY) suggesting that I should receive a token (based on this merit). So with the proposed trend line, my find out should be a 0-1, which has already been the hassle of making this glorious appeal.

[Timberpoes]

1a. The ban appeals forum is not for appealing removed positive notes. This place is for removing notes you don't want. There's no place to appeal removal of positive notes, since it's not something admins are allowed to do without exceptions in place. That would be admin complaints. However...
1b. It would be unfair to reprimand a player for doing what an admin required or told them to. Admins should not be removing positive notes and then telling players to appeal to get them back. Admins encouraging or requiring players to misuse appeals may find themselves in trouble instead of the player. So we'll just treat this as an appeal against an admin's choosing to remove a positive note as a punishment. This will help avoid having to fuck around moving this thread about.

2a. Positive notes being removed as punishment for something is not something admins should ever be doing.
2b. Doing things like this as punishment for conversation on the Discord is also not something admins should be doing.

3. Removing notes that were placed by another admin at a time when you weren't even an admin is highly iffy without contacting the headmins or note-placing admin first as a matter of good courtesy and general due process, complicated when the note is tagged by your name. The amount of grey-within-grey area this involves is headache-inducing so we'll just leave that point right there.

I asked that the positive note be put back in place in the admin channels and I believe that's now been done. However, this "appeal" itself will sit with the headmins since I want to check in with the full triumvirate to see if anything else needs to be said or done here.

For context, this is the operative part of the Discord conversation
https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 6374321312

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

prussen — Yesterday at 02:51
riddled with
notes
[Image of their notes]
didnt even give me an antag note for that
antag
token*
for that
bad event

carlarc — Yesterday at 02:53
@Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) mind telling me why you didnt give them an antag token:/

[Replying to above carlarc message]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:56
?

Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:57
Oh I see.
@carlarc Say sike right now.

carlarc — Yesterday at 02:57
sike right now

[Replying to prussen's image of their notes]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:57
I can take it away if you don't want it.
Thought you'd apprenciate something nice on your record

prussen — Yesterday at 02:58
the event was pretty silly because

Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:58
I'll assume that's a yes.

prussen — Yesterday at 02:58
nanotrasen never
responded to out
our

prussen — Yesterday at 02:58
communcations

[Replying to Chadley's comment above]
prussen — Yesterday at 02:58
don
t

Conrad is relocating — Yesterday at 02:58
I wonder if there's gonna be a note appeal
to put the note back in

prussen — Yesterday at 02:58
we got left on read by
nanotrasen

[Replying to prussen's "don't" message]
Conrad is relocating — Yesterday at 02:59
Wuss
Stick to your guns

carlarc — Yesterday at 02:59
has taht ever happened before

[Replying to prussen's "we got left on read by nanotrasen"]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:59
Cause you're a grunt.

[Replying to Conrad's "stick to your guns"]
prussen — Yesterday at 02:59
i said
free token not

Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:59
And you're going to stay a grunt
Until you die.

prussen — Yesterday at 02:59
delete it

[Replying to prussen's "free token not"]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 02:59
That means delete it.
You can appeal to get it back..

prussen — Yesterday at 02:59
ok but that means i get a new thing saying free token for event...

prussen — Yesterday at 03:00
this is admin abuse
worse future than what george orwell

prussen — Yesterday at 03:00
predicted in his
novel
198
4

Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 03:00
Removed.

[Replying to prussen's "this is admin abuse"]
Conrad is relocating — Yesterday at 03:00
Yes

[Replying to Chadley's "Removed"]
prussen — Yesterday at 03:00
[GIF of some dumb streamer clapping]
do i get
a token

[Replying to prussen's "do i get a token"]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 03:01
No, you don't.

prussen — Yesterday at 03:02
ACTUALLY REMOVED
@Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) can i get it back
i wasnt even
the one to
ask for the
token
it was @carlarc
can you give him a bad note instead

[Replying to prussen's "can I get it back"]
Chadley (SUPER ANTAGONISTIC) — Yesterday at 03:03
No

[Replying to prussen's "can you give him a bad note instead"]
Conrad is relocating — Yesterday at 03:03
The babyrage
Don't like
point at someone and go

Conrad is relocating — Yesterday at 03:04
"ueeeehn they did it 👉 "

prussen — Yesterday at 03:04
im making a

prussen — Yesterday at 03:04
note removal
appeal

[Chadley]

I've come hat in hand to do what should've been done in the first place rather than what I responded with. Any way you cut it in any way I wanted this to pan out, the note was not a piece to be shifted here, this post will stand as a mia culpa.

If you haven't already seen it, the note was replaced word for word (except the ending signed by myself since I could post it this time)

I'm sorry this ordeal panned out in the way it did, I hope this note stands the test of time it did back on your record. End of the day, no action past or future should've changed a note that was made in that present moment.


If that satisfies whatever you may need from me here we're golden until the headmins come back, if for whatever reason there is something wrong with the note or you'd like it altered somehow (within reason to the original), feel free to let me know.

[Timberpoes]

Chadley has been given a formal conduct warning following this appeal. Talks were productive and as a less experienced admin we expect the odd faux pas during the trial period. Lessons learned and all that.

Discussions have been had internally and we'll be looking to clarify editing/removing notes on the admin conduct pages before the term is out.

We've got a draft for this on the cutting room floor, but if you want some sort of general headmin ruling if we don't manage to crunch it out before this term ends then tl;dr:

Game Admins do not have the authority to retroactively change past positive notes based on future events, full stop. The only people who can authorise doing this are the Headmins.