Cheshify - Ban Appeal

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 1:16 am #697816

BYOND account: OmenVI
Character name: Mike Walter
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Perma
Ban reason: Using their own or someone else's PDA, sent messages to people on the station soliciting for "nudes". Their reasoning was that it was "funny".
Time ban was placed: /2023/08/06
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 211880
Why you think you should be unbanned: I'm not sure if the admin responsible was aware or not, but I did not message multiple people on the station for nudes. I was playing as sec, arrested the chap because of reports of weird behavior, then was effectively called shitsec because of it. Normal, but I thought that since he said that I'd pull a harmless prank on him. After I checked his PDA I noticed he was messaging someone, so I decided to use the PDA to send a few messages to the one person he was talking to that all basically went back to "send nudes". This was just to get back at him for calling me shitsec. No harm no foul in my mind. But shortly after that an admin contacted me, asked me why I did it, I said it was a joke, then they perma banned me across all of the servers. I do not understand how what I did deserves such a severe punishment, and I think it's weird that in the ban reason they said I messaged multiple people saying "send nudes".

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:05 am #697820

So some context, first of all, shortly after the ban I amended the note to better describe the issue.

"Banned from the server permanently - As a security officer. Using someone else's PDA, sent messages to people on the station soliciting for "nudes". Their reasoning was that it was "funny".
Being creepy as a joke over PDAs is bad, and doing it with someone else's PDA to impersonate them is crossing many lines."

Related logs, too. More info will come in a second post.

NSFW:

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:22 am #697822

While this is partially related to rule 8, since asking someone for nude images (obviously in a joking manner in this case, hence the bobs and vagene) is so ERP adjacent that I'd ask anyone to stop with it. The major issue I take with your actions is doing this as a security officer using someone else's PDA. I think making yourself look like a creep/pervert is a very fuck around -> find out moment that could be handled with shorter bans, what this is, is you going out of your way to make someone else look like they're breaking OOC rules and possibly making others think someone is OOCly a massive weirdo.

I believe that this is something that cannot be allowed to continue, and in my conversation with you there was no sign of remorse or understanding of the broader issue, hence the permanent ban. I think TGstation is a server better off without this kind of behavior as it paints someone entirely innocent as an IC and OOC rule 8 breaker.

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:25 am #697823

If you'd like to resend a new post containing "why I should be unbanned" with my updated ban reasoning and context above in mind, I'm not denying this appeal yet.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:43 am #697824

Sure but you didn't ask me to stop at all. After I said I thought it was funny, you said "you know what else is funny?" then banned me. You say that I wasn't remorseful in the conversation, but there wasn't even a conversation to be had in the first place.

Also I'd prefer if you didn't make it seem like I did this to affect them on anything BUT an IC scale. No. I do not care about making anyone look bad OOC. That seems like a complete reach, as if you're trying to make me seem like I've got a personal problem with the guy. What this really is, is an IC joke. Full stop. This doesn't somehow magically paint them as a rule breaker, especially since you literally have the logs of who said what.

Regardless, it's hard for me to be remorseful for something as lighthearted and insignificant as this. You even admitted that you understand this is obviously a joke, so the fact that you perma banned me and then made it seem like I did that for some weird fucking ooc reason really strikes me the wrong way!

Yes I was playing a security officer when I did the joke. Why should that matter? I'm still a player, and since this was on Manuel they could've just gotten me fired for what I did. How does me being a security officer doing the prank translate to a perma ban? I'm not apologizing for this because I genuinely believe this was an overreaction on your part, especially since, once again, you understood it was a joke. And I think you understand too that a perma ban over that is blowing things way out of the water.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:50 am #697826

Also the new ban reason is still wrong. It implies I messaged multiple people when it was just one.

Lacran · Post by **Lacran** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 3:11 am #697828

OmenVI wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:43 am Sure but you didn't ask me to stop at all. After I said I thought it was funny, you said "you know what else is funny?" then banned me. You say that I wasn't remorseful in the conversation, but there wasn't even a conversation to be had in the first place.

Also I'd prefer if you didn't make it seem like I did this to affect them on anything BUT an IC scale. No. I do not care about making anyone look bad OOC. That seems like a complete reach, as if you're trying to make me seem like I've got a personal problem with the guy. What this really is, is an IC joke. Full stop. This doesn't somehow magically paint them as a rule breaker, especially since you literally have the logs of who said what.

Regardless, it's hard for me to be remorseful for something as lighthearted and insignificant as this. You even admitted that you understand this is obviously a joke, so the fact that you perma banned me and then made it seem like I did that for some weird fucking ooc reason really strikes me the wrong way!

Yes I was playing a security officer when I did the joke. Why should that matter? I'm still a player, and since this was on Manuel they could've just gotten me fired for what I did. How does me being a security officer doing the prank translate to a perma ban? I'm not apologizing for this because I genuinely believe this was an overreaction on your part, especially since, once again, you understood it was a joke. And I think you understand too that a perma ban over that is blowing things way out of the water.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.
No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

Requesting nudes from other people, even as a joke can be seen as a rule 8 break. Rule breaks especially around rule 8 are treated very seriously. Framing other players for rule 8 breaks as sec may seem like harmless fun but could get that person in serious trouble.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 3:18 am #697830

Ok good. But why was I perma banned over it if they knew it was a joke? And why are they making it seem like I did this to make someone look bad ooc? That's what's got me so confused here.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:10 am #697833

I think the problem is that you did it as a joke, but still broke the rules and very strongly enforced rules at that.

But you're so focused on the idea you did it as a joke that you're missing the memo that this was unacceptable even as a joke.

You need to consider both the impact your actions could have had on the player getting creepy messages and on the person whom you pranked through using their PDA to do it.

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:10 am #697834

Not going to lie, not the best ticket etiquette. I have no tolerance for people intent on knowingly breaking the rules 'as a joke', especially since you alluded to knowing it was a rulebreak "ok go ahead and ban me for it then".

While not a good ticket, it does contain more nuance than what you've provided with me just saying "I've got a better joke." You knew this was banworthy, however.

I do not believe you targeted anyone or this was a planned attack. It is not cool to be impersonating someone else and then being shady, especially if it's while you're breaking rule 8.

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:11 am #697835

Timber put things very well, this is an Empathy issue, try to imagine what consequences rulebreaks can have for other players OOCly. Imagine if you had people believing that you were some kind of pervert due to no fault of you own.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:40 am #697838

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:10 am Not going to lie, not the best ticket etiquette. I have no tolerance for people intent on knowingly breaking the rules 'as a joke', especially since you alluded to knowing it was a rulebreak "ok go ahead and ban me for it then".

While not a good ticket, it does contain more nuance than what you've provided with me just saying "I've got a better joke." You knew this was banworthy, however.

I do not believe you targeted anyone or this was a planned attack. It is not cool to be impersonating someone else and then being shady, especially if it's while you're breaking rule 8.

I didn't allude to anything. It's pretty obvious you're gonna ban me if you decide to send me "I've got a better joke" if you're an admin.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:57 am #697840

I didn't think this qualified as ERP at all. I'm not making my 2D space man fuck another 2D space man. I said send nudes. You all are acting like I opened pandora's box though, which is why I'm confused on why this is a perma ban and not a warning or even a temp ban. If I had known just fucking saying send nudes a couple of times qualified a perma ban I most likely wouldn't have said it, but because the atmosphere of the game is inherently ridiculous, I didn't think that was an issue. So when I was contacted about it and you said you've got a better joke, I'm not gonna fight it, because I know you've probably already decided on what you'd do. That's how you guys operate.

IF this somehow got someone else in trouble, wouldn't that also be your guys' fault for not listening to them or double checking? You guys decided to be admins so you can't just say I'd be the one that got him in trouble. It'd be on you too. But I didn't think that would even be a problem because the logs say it all, which is why I'm here and he's not.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:08 am #697854

Witherael wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:06 am
OmenVI wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:57 am I didn't think this qualified as ERP at all. I'm not making my 2D space man fuck another 2D space man. I said send nudes. You all are acting like I opened pandora's box though, which is why I'm confused on why this is a perma ban and not a warning or even a temp ban. If I had known just fucking saying send nudes a couple of times qualified a perma ban I most likely wouldn't have said it, but because the atmosphere of the game is inherently ridiculous, I didn't think that was an issue. So when I was contacted about it and you said you've got a better joke, I'm not gonna fight it, because I know you've probably already decided on what you'd do. That's how you guys operate.

IF this somehow got someone else in trouble, wouldn't that also be your guys' fault for not listening to them or double checking? You guys decided to be admins so you can't just say I'd be the one that got him in trouble. It'd be on you too. But I didn't think that would even be a problem because the logs say it all, which is why I'm here and he's not.
Sir, you falsely arrested me, took my PDA, and starting being unfunny. I am always funny, so you have to be banned.

Nope. I arrested you because I was told to. Then I took your PDA and started being funny. You couldn't get over that so you took the time to find this post and then reply to it. That's pretty unfunny.

iwishforducks · Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:20 am

Hey there, just some friendly advice:

Folks are usually given a rule 8 warning before being escalated to a permanent ban. Only genuine ERP is first given a permanent ban. We don’t give out the perma ban first go because there’s a lot of people with shitty humor that just need to be told that it’s not acceptable. Lots of folks simply just need to be told that. Source: Was an admin once, Mothblocks told me this in training. With that said, if the admin has no reason to believe that you won’t stop making “creepy jokes” then there’s no reason to lift the ban.

!	Message from: Timberpoes
	Removed some peanutty parts.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:54 am #697872

What's the reason to believe I'd keep doing it then?

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 1:28 pm #697877

All of my points have completely gone over your head, even with multiple people (including me) telling you exactly what you need to do to get your ban reduced.

You broke strongly enforced rules as a 'joke', and don't seem to grasp that it was an issue or why it was an issue. I'd like for you to read this carefully.

You should not under any circumstance be pretending to be someone else and be breaking the rules under their name. Don't be a creep and send unsolicited requests for nude images to other players. Think about how it would FEEL for some other player to believe that you were a creep because someone else pretended to be you.

Post by **Cheshify** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:11 pm #697883

I am denying this appeal now, I do not think a resolution can be made at this point, and the discussion around the actions taken in game has been worn out into me asking for you to try to be empathetic again.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:38 pm #697929

Nothing you said went over my head. Everything you've told me I've acknowledged in some capacity, but the same can't be said for you. You want me to be empathetic, sure, but I'm not going to lie and pretend like I am, because that's just the answer you want me give. There's no discussion about it, it's just a matter of me acting a way you want me to in this little ban appeal. I didn't do anything "creepy" it's a send nudes joke.

How would it FEEL if someone were to do that to me? I wouldn't care at all. It would mean nothing to me. I don't care about how someone else thinks of me on this game if I genuinely didn't do anything wrong, or it was someone else. I could be sympathetic if what they framed me for was actually fucked up, but this isn't.

Back to the "went over my head" thing, I could say the same to you. I've made points that you completely ignored, but that's fine yeah? You don't want a discussion you want an apology.

Imitates-The-Lizards · Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:20 pm

OmenVI wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:38 pm Nothing you said went over my head. Everything you've told me I've acknowledged in some capacity, but the same can't be said for you. You want me to be empathetic, sure, but I'm not going to lie and pretend like I am, because that's just the answer you want me give. There's no discussion about it, it's just a matter of me acting a way you want me to in this little ban appeal. I didn't do anything "creepy" it's a send nudes joke.

How would it FEEL if someone were to do that to me? I wouldn't care at all. It would mean nothing to me. I don't care about how someone else thinks of me on this game if I genuinely didn't do anything wrong, or it was someone else. I could be sympathetic if what they framed me for was actually fucked up, but this isn't.

Back to the "went over my head" thing, I could say the same to you. I've made points that you completely ignored, but that's fine yeah? You don't want a discussion you want an apology.

Just quoting you so you get a notification, but, if you feel dis-satisfied with the outcome of this appeal (Since Cheshify denied it), you can request review by the headmin team if you wish to do so, if not, the admins will probably lock this appeal in a week or something.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:27 pm #697984

OmenVI wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:38 pm Nothing you said went over my head. Everything you've told me I've acknowledged in some capacity, but the same can't be said for you. You want me to be empathetic, sure, but I'm not going to lie and pretend like I am, because that's just the answer you want me give. There's no discussion about it, it's just a matter of me acting a way you want me to in this little ban appeal. I didn't do anything "creepy" it's a send nudes joke.

How would it FEEL if someone were to do that to me? I wouldn't care at all. It would mean nothing to me. I don't care about how someone else thinks of me on this game if I genuinely didn't do anything wrong, or it was someone else. I could be sympathetic if what they framed me for was actually fucked up, but this isn't.

Back to the "went over my head" thing, I could say the same to you. I've made points that you completely ignored, but that's fine yeah? You don't want a discussion you want an apology.

The three "send nudes" without anything else probably would've ended up with a "don't be a dipshit sending multiple messages like this on someone else's PDA in the future" note/warning and probably not a ban.

The "let me see you naked" on its own would have probably netted you a serious (but probably not permanent) ban as a one-off, or if you were VERY lucky a first-last-and-only warning note.

But the three "send nudes" followed by the "let me see you naked" was where your joke crossed the line into a serious rule break.

It's not that your points are being ignored and that we're dismissing that you were joking. It's that your joke itself was on the edge of good taste up until you jumped off the edge and crossed the line. Crossing the line put you totally into the unacceptable-even-if-joking category of behaviour.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:19 am #698014

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:27 pm
OmenVI wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:38 pm Nothing you said went over my head. Everything you've told me I've acknowledged in some capacity, but the same can't be said for you. You want me to be empathetic, sure, but I'm not going to lie and pretend like I am, because that's just the answer you want me give. There's no discussion about it, it's just a matter of me acting a way you want me to in this little ban appeal. I didn't do anything "creepy" it's a send nudes joke.

How would it FEEL if someone were to do that to me? I wouldn't care at all. It would mean nothing to me. I don't care about how someone else thinks of me on this game if I genuinely didn't do anything wrong, or it was someone else. I could be sympathetic if what they framed me for was actually fucked up, but this isn't.

Back to the "went over my head" thing, I could say the same to you. I've made points that you completely ignored, but that's fine yeah? You don't want a discussion you want an apology.
The three "send nudes" without anything else probably would've ended up with a "don't be a dipshit sending multiple messages like this on someone else's PDA in the future" note/warning and probably not a ban.

The "let me see you naked" on its own would have probably netted you a serious (but probably not permanent) ban as a one-off, or if you were VERY lucky a first-last-and-only warning note.

But the three "send nudes" followed by the "let me see you naked" was where your joke crossed the line into a serious rule break.

It's not that your points are being ignored and that we're dismissing that you were joking. It's that your joke itself was on the edge of good taste up until you jumped off the edge and crossed the line. Crossing the line put you totally into the unacceptable-even-if-joking category of behaviour.

Send nudes is a warning and let me see you naked is the ban? It's the same thing. This is just semantics at this point.

I played TG for awhile and as far back as I can remember it's always been a no ERP server. I was aware of that, but ERP to me has always meant typing out what your character is actually doing to another. Not messaging someone send nudes or let me see you naked in a joking manner. The rules now might clarify that but I do not check the rules every time I join the game. That's not an excuse but it should help you understand where I'm coming from. There was no attempt at clarifying that with me at all, and if there was, I guarantee I wouldn't have continued. But no there was just that brief exchange in the ticket followed by "I've got a better joke" then a perma ban. I've been banned before I believe for minor things but this is the first time I've somewhat broken the ERP rule. So with no clarification at the time of the ban, and no past problems with this rule in particular, why was I perma banned for something that, at the end of the day, is a rule break, but isn't as horrible as you all are making it seem? Because I didn't show "remorse" in the ticket or because I'm not showing "empathy" right now?

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:29 am #698022

This is going to be lengthy but I want to discuss something that couldn't be covered in a ticket and probably something a lot of our admin team would struggle to express or explain; they just know Rule 8 breaks are bad and usually result in lengthy bans. The deeper understanding of why isn't necessary to enforce the rule to an acceptable degree. As an experienced admin and second-time headmin, I'm going to take a shot at it and hopefully give you some insight and context into Rule 8 and how the admin team views and enforces it, and hopefully a little about why too.

I think that's part of what you're missing to understand why this ban was placed, why it was permanent and possibly even a little of why Cheshify was extremely terse in the ticket with you.

So, here goes:

About Rule 8 Itself
Rule 8 is not just about ERP. Quoting the rule itself: "8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed."

Rule 8 is put in place to protect players not just from ERP, but from any kind of weird, creepy and unwanted behaviour, comments, topics and sometimes even ideas that the admin team (with support of the headmins) believe have no place on our actual game servers.

How We Enforce Rule 8
As we enforce it these days, it's not just a rule about protecting the sandbox or roleplay. It's also a rule to protect the actual people behind the characters from needing to deal with people that lack a certain level of social maturity and tact in a game that attracts the terminally online.

The honest truth is - whether you or anyone else agrees with how the admin team enforces Rule 8 - that it is heavily over-enforced and corrected down on appeal.

It's not unusual for players that fall foul of Rule 8 to be instantly permabanned for any incident that is bad enough. It's also not unusual for players that breach Rule 8 in minor ways twice to be permabanned for the second time.

Examples of recent Rule 8 bans placed by our admin team across the past year or so include:

Spoiler:

Note that except the player spamming a copypasta who got a 1 day ban, every single other player I cherrypicked got at least a 7 day ban for conduct that falls under Rule 8. Many get permabans.

The reason why we heavily enforce Rule 8 and correct it down on appeal is that it's a rule about conduct protecting the players themselves more than the characters. The consequences of Rule 8 breaks tend to be that much higher than "died in video game, just adminheal them back to life".

What We're Hoping To Accomplish Here
I hope you'll forgive Cheshify for being terse, and at least understand why they thought it would unproductive to engage with you on a deeper level about the philosophy behind Rule 8 when it seemed like you weren't taking it as seriously as they were.

The reason this all matters isn't because we're looking for you to tell us the magical words we want to hear. It matters because we do not want you to repeat this behaviour or conduct in any way, at all, ever again, for the rest of your time on our servers.

You're right, what you did wasn't ERP. But Rule 8 is about more than just ERP. The impression you give is that you believe what you did was acceptable and/or not against the rules. Although you're just being honest, the risk with this is that you'll do it again. And I think that from my above explanations, you'll understand more about what Rule 8 is on modern tgstation. At least as a Headmin I believe I have fairly good insight into it, anyway. It's a necessary part of the role.

That's also where any concerns about remorse or empathy come in, because a player that disagrees with a rule/disagrees that they broke a rule can still understand why what they did was a problem. Enough that even though they disagree - they agree it's not something they'll ever repeat because they at the very least understand the other side of the coin and/or the consequences for repeating it.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:02 am #698026

Also for an example of a recent appeal for two players joking around with Rule 8:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34559

They got a 5 day ban each in the end. While what they did was so utterly slapstick stupidly hilarious that we kinda let it pass, it still cracked Rule 8 right on the noggin and they were banned.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:58 am #698044

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:29 am This is going to be lengthy but I want to discuss something that couldn't be covered in a ticket and probably something a lot of our admin team would struggle to express or explain; they just know Rule 8 breaks are bad and usually result in lengthy bans. The deeper understanding of why isn't necessary to enforce the rule to an acceptable degree. As an experienced admin and second-time headmin, I'm going to take a shot at it and hopefully give you some insight and context into Rule 8 and how the admin team views and enforces it, and hopefully a little about why too.

I think that's part of what you're missing to understand why this ban was placed, why it was permanent and possibly even a little of why Cheshify was extremely terse in the ticket with you.

So, here goes:

About Rule 8 Itself
Rule 8 is not just about ERP. Quoting the rule itself: "8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed."

Rule 8 is put in place to protect players not just from ERP, but from any kind of weird, creepy and unwanted behaviour, comments, topics and sometimes even ideas that the admin team (with support of the headmins) believe have no place on our actual game servers.

How We Enforce Rule 8
As we enforce it these days, it's not just a rule about protecting the sandbox or roleplay. It's also a rule to protect the actual people behind the characters from needing to deal with people that lack a certain level of social maturity and tact in a game that attracts the terminally online.

The honest truth is - whether you or anyone else agrees with how the admin team enforces Rule 8 - that it is heavily over-enforced and corrected down on appeal.

It's not unusual for players that fall foul of Rule 8 to be instantly permabanned for any incident that is bad enough. It's also not unusual for players that breach Rule 8 in minor ways twice to be permabanned for the second time.

Examples of recent Rule 8 bans placed by our admin team across the past year or so include:
Spoiler:
1 day ban - Rule 8 Kept spamming: "CBT stands for "Cock Bungee Training". CBT is a popular penis lengthening technique used men with small penises. The man uses a bungee to suspend themselves using only their penis. Gravity then works in their favor to stretch out their penis. If done correctly, the bungee will lengthen the penis by a couple inches."
7 day ban - Rule 8 - As a gondola in thunderdome, started making rape jokes and sexual remarks
7 day ban - Rule 8 - [2023-06-24 18:36:16] Dewin50/(Eugene Scarecrow) (Prison Wing (83,193,2)) (Event #0) ( PDA: Eugene Scarecrow to Everyone) "Im stroking my dick rn im hard af rn im fucking coming"
Permaban - Multiple occasion rule 8 offender. The final straw was stripping a person in maint while saying "can't even rape the clown in maint in peace". Has a prior history of using rule 8 territory names Georgiy Rapeovich and Dick Harding (And refusing to change the latter for over a month after being told to do so).
7 day ban - While getting beaten to death by security (? no idea), (EMOTE) gets an erection. This is clearly creepy and a violation of rule 8, don't do anything remotely like this again
14 day ban - Banned for rule 8, made several sexual comments after being arrested, includng "you tried to rape me" and "he touched me on private spots and im only 3 years old" please refrain from engaging in anything like this that clearly falls astray of rule 8.
Permaban - Rule 8 - (OOC) "only true cunny enjoyers will upvote that tweet"; "OH GOD OH FUCK I LOVE BEE CUNNY"
Note that except the player spamming a copypasta who got a 1 day ban, every single other player I cherrypicked got at least a 7 day ban for conduct that falls under Rule 8. Many get permabans.

The reason why we heavily enforce Rule 8 and correct it down on appeal is that it's a rule about conduct protecting the players themselves more than the characters. The consequences of Rule 8 breaks tend to be that much higher than "died in video game, just adminheal them back to life".

What We're Hoping To Accomplish Here
I hope you'll forgive Cheshify for being terse, and at least understand why they thought it would unproductive to engage with you on a deeper level about the philosophy behind Rule 8 when it seemed like you weren't taking it as seriously as they were.

The reason this all matters isn't because we're looking for you to tell us the magical words we want to hear. It matters because we do not want you to repeat this behaviour or conduct in any way, at all, ever again, for the rest of your time on our servers.

You're right, what you did wasn't ERP. But Rule 8 is about more than just ERP. The impression you give is that you believe what you did was acceptable and/or not against the rules. Although you're just being honest, the risk with this is that you'll do it again. And I think that from my above explanations, you'll understand more about what Rule 8 is on modern tgstation. At least as a Headmin I believe I have fairly good insight into it, anyway. It's a necessary part of the role.

That's also where any concerns about remorse or empathy come in, because a player that disagrees with a rule/disagrees that they broke a rule can still understand why what they did was a problem. Enough that even though they disagree - they agree it's not something they'll ever repeat because they at the very least understand the other side of the coin and/or the consequences for repeating it.

Thanks for the explanation. But I literally said what I did was a rule break, just I didn't think it was.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 4:02 am #698045

Also, someone can make literal rape jokes and get a 7 day ban.
Someone can say they got an erection and get a 14 day ban.
Someone can say they're strokin their dick rn and shit and get 7 days.

I know these are cherry picked and like you said many got perma bans, but if they can get away with all of that and get temp bans then why do I get perma banned if what I did was nowhere near as bad? You see what I'm trying to say?

Post by **Cheshify** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 4:58 am #698048

You were permanently banned because we have no interest in having players take the actions you took and then playing them off as a joke. I haven't been given sufficient enough justification that this is a one time lapse of judgement when all I'm told is that it is just a joke.

"it's just a joke" is quite possibly the worst response to an admin asking you about a rule 8 break, Omen. We're not here to just ban people for no reason, but to keep the server a fun and creep-free experience. I need to know that mistakes when made are just mistakes and that the consequences are taken seriously. It's why I've asked you about being empathetic because this 'joke' could have had some uncomfortable OOC consequences for people.

Post by **Cheshify** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:07 am #698049

Of course, I could have sat you down and explained the consequences of your actions for a half hour, and I could have had better ticket etiquette. I don't want to play moral guide to someone I do not think is going to be receptive to a discussion after they've done something that I believe is morally wrong and telling me they're just having a laugh.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:27 am #698051

Cheshify wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 4:58 am You were permanently banned because we have no interest in having players take the actions you took and then playing them off as a joke. I haven't been given sufficient enough justification that this is a one time lapse of judgement when all I'm told is that it is just a joke.

"it's just a joke" is quite possibly the worst response to an admin asking you about a rule 8 break, Omen. We're not here to just ban people for no reason, but to keep the server a fun and creep-free experience. I need to know that mistakes when made are just mistakes and that the consequences are taken seriously. It's why I've asked you about being empathetic because this 'joke' could have had some uncomfortable OOC consequences for people.

As I said before, after being informed that the rule encompasses any and all sexual material no matter how insignificant it may seem, I recognize that what I did was violating rule eight. I obviously won't do it again, and I said that that I wouldn't have done it again if you would've told me about it. Where's your justification for thinking I'd keep doing it? Also if this for some reason, somehow, someway, made someone feel like they were "sexually harassed" via the funny spessmen game, then I wholeheartedly apologize on that front.

I agree I didn't fully explain my reasoning for doing what I did in the ticket, and that put you in a position where you thought I wouldn't be willing to talk about it at all, but as you can see from this long ass essay we typed up, I'm more than willing. That's my bad, and the way you responded was your bad too. That's all there is to it.

Post by **Cheshify** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:12 pm #698085

I think that's enough self awareness for me to consider accepting your appeal. I'm going to be reducing the time of this ban to a week. ("But chesh you already denied it" don't care my appeal) I'm glad that despite the bumps in the road we can understand the general gravity of the situation here and how this is an incident we very much want to avoid repeating.

I can suggest that in your own time you find the proper people to apologize to, since I'm not the one wronged here.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:30 pm #698137

Hot diggity fucking dog.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:34 pm #698138

Truly one of the posts of all time.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:40 pm #698139

OmenVI wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:30 pm Hot diggity fucking dog.

Hazarding a rough guess that you're satisfied with the reduction to 7 days?

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:44 pm #698141

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:40 pm
OmenVI wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:30 pm Hot diggity fucking dog.
Hazarding a rough guess that you're satisfied with the reduction to 7 days?

Yes I think that's fair. I apologize if I came off as rude throughout this post, I just didn't believe a perma ban for what I did was right and was mildly irritated.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:47 am #698150

OmenVI wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:44 pm Yes I think that's fair. I apologize if I came off as rude throughout this post, I just didn't believe a perma ban for what I did was right and was mildly irritated.

Please accept my apologies as well, on behalf of the admin team as a whole.

A little bit extra context; "I was joking"/"it was a joke, bro" is something the admin team tends to hear from timewasters and shitters that are breaking the rules for fun. It's the player equivalent to an admin opening an ahelp with "Why the fuck did you do that?" or "Got a minute?". It tends to puts the other party on the defensive and can lead to them become closed and unwilling to engage.

As Chesh themselves have noted, they could have handled this far differently with the benefit of hindsight. Unfortunately, miscommunication caused this incident to be much more frustrating for both parties than it needed to be.

That'll be a key contributing factor as to why this was immediately pitched at a perma.

Our admin team puts hundreds of hours combined per week to try and give 24/7 coverage of all our game servers. Even when admins aren't online, people are monitoring the Discord for relayed and urgent ahelps at work or during their own leisure time. We don't pay them a dime for this, we (both "we the admin team" and "we the headmin team") barely offer them long-term support and coaching in a quite difficult and draining public-facing role. We just expect them to, you know, deal with a lot of the worst of what SS13 as a game and as a community of people has to offer.

One look at our public permaban page will give an idea of some of the incidents our most active admins can deal with. Vile racism, evading shitters ruining shifts, handling issues with very creepy and disturbing context.

Spoiler:

I think it's inevitable that moments like this sometimes happen. My hope is that you don't hold this against Chesh. They're one of our most consistently active admins and being active comes with not only the joy of all the best parts of SS13 but also seeing and often handling oh so much of the worst of SS13.

Post by **Cheshify** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:43 am #698156

Timber I appreciate the post, and Omen I hold no grudge or hatred towards you or anything. Shit indeed does just happen and mistakes are made, and I can understand being irritated from your POV. This very much would have looked like me taking you out back behind the shed when you seemingly hadn't broken a rule.

Nobody's going to hold anything against you, and I think this ban could be a good indicator that we (as an admin team and also totally me) should be actively trying to teach people the rules to avoid further issues.

OmenVI · Post by **OmenVI** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:21 am #698167

It was selfish of me to prolong this for as long as I did without considering the amount of effort you guys put into this, so thanks for being patient and explaining what happened. I don't hold anything against any of you either.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:41 am #698169