In this thread, multiple admins encourage it.
However, this ban included punishment for it, afaik.
![Image](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/611894344210710533/1156927115049050133/ss2023-07-21at11.19.33.png?ex=6516bfd6&is=65156e56&hm=bb89e996f4ff0e0c124bb54a99f8694c3445c02caeb57997030830b35800d952&)
Please clarify!
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
If I’m not mistaken you get ghosted, and “not being able to play the game” seems like a reason to me.
It's as much preventing you from playing the game as getting killed by anything else - which we consider fine and acceptable table stakes even if we try to mitigate it through ghost roles and midrounds that bring you back in.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
The rationale for #2 (they don't want it, so they shouldn't have to follow it in order to play the game) opens a lot of doors around asking whether or not people can ignore brainwashing, silicons can ignore or opt out of nonstandard lawsets after changes, etc.
It's hard to sus out, and you made that point very well up top - we're in sort of a DADT state right now where if you're not actively harming your own side, it's hard to punish anyone for malingering.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:58 pm What exactly is defined as contributing or interacting with their conversion antag? [...]
It does not. That sentence is providing context. It factored into the conversion antag ban, but I lifted that on request. This ban was about OOC in IC. Saying “admins” in character. The note history it relied upon, were entirely limited to OOC IC or IC OOC.
I'm against people just outright refusing to help (though going back to your job until Shit Hits The Fan and then doing your job on the side of your team, is perfectly fine, sleeper agents are Good Actually and not everyone has to fight) but I also fundamentally disagree with "there's no reason not to"
I have a very big issue with this line of reasoning, namely because I once made the mistake of offering my body up one (1) time. The player pretended to be a pedophile with my name in dchat thereafter. Lukas also mentioned similar,
Now before the onslaught of "ahelp it!" and "that is an administrative issue" gets mentioned, consider the fact the player getting banned doesn't undo what they say and do as your character. That is a reflection of your character and by extension, the player behind the character. If your character starts doing cringey suspicious shit, people will assume that is you doing that as your character.kieth4 wrote:ages ago now someone had to go, got offered to ghosts and the ghost now in their body said a bunch of freaky shit to me...asked them recently and found out it wasnt them.[...]thought they were a freak for a good year
What I was talking about specifically was people wordlessly ghosting out or suiciding, not the antag ban. The concept of "ahelp and we will get a willing player" is predicated by and admin being present and if the person who wants to tag out in this ahelp say "oh ye and change my name, I am concerned about people being dodgy with it", I would just do it. It's not standard practice, but if it's requested, imma take that concern seriously.
"sec check crew manifest for a culty mcantaggins please, looks exactly like our bartender"Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:03 am What if we made the antag ban player swap change your name or something?
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
I mean I understand the fear but like we have people who get replaced already and their stand in doesnt diddle space kids or whatever. Your situation is an anomaly and one not exclusive to your character being offered to ghosts. A simple voice changer could largely replicate that problem, and we have had thousands of rounds where neither this item or the ghost replacement tool ruins people's character.
Becoming an antag gave them an Identity DisorderItseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:38 am I don't know how you would even BEGIN to to justify having the game automatically reroll your character once a ghost takes over from an RP standpoint. I don't think even we have such an egregious miscarriage of verisimilitude as something like that.
If you even attempted to put any in character context to that process it would be the dumbest excuse since "sleep space disorder"
It may be an anomaly but it doesn’t change the fact it happens and is a risk you would now be forced into taking due to potential policy. I also don’t think it’s rare enough to be deemed invalid since Lukas also mentioned this happening, and that sample size alone of the few players that actually post here is enough to show it as a valid concern.Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:38 am I mean I understand the fear but like we have people who get replaced already and their stand in doesnt diddle space kids or whatever. Your situation is an anomaly and one not exclusive to your character being offered to ghosts. A simple voice changer could largely replicate that problem, and we have had thousands of rounds where neither this item or the ghost replacement tool ruins people's character.
… Except these are all antagonists. Most of which exist while you’re also in the round, have various tells or roundend disclosures, and usually a court of ghosts around establishing who they are in the peanut gallery. And probably one of those ghosts is you yourself, unless you’re still in the round — in which case the disguise is kind of a moot point.Cobby wrote:We have an entire antagonist built around ruining the sanctity of your character, Changeling. We have items that can make it appear as if your character is performing the actions, such as a chamkit/agentid/voicechanger. These items/antags have been present since I started playing around in 2013-14 without issue.
Update on this, at least one maintainer is against the idea because it'll muddle things like Changelings taking someone's identity or Traitors impersonating others. This is going to have to be something we solve administratively.
This is probably my biggest issue with the matter in general. It's not really enforceable because we basically have to figure out how to enforce competency. The only thing we could really objectively say is not helping is either going AFK/SSD or doing something that completely tanks their chances of winning, which is already covered under rule 4. Unless someone is dumb enough to just outright tell the person who converted them to fuck off and that they're not helping, we can't realistically enforce it.TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:34 pm Other than pulling a crag, how would an admin even be able to tell if you’re “not contributing”. I think that’s a much more important discussion that a hypothetical antag ban.
Something like indiscriminate murder in public which gets your entire team revealed is still “contributing”, even if you plummet your teams chances. Going back to your job can be “contributing” unless you pull a crag and denounce your team.
I think the rule is the way it is now because how the hell do you codify “contribute to your team” in a sandbox game in an enforceable way?
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
I'm actually really confused by this because you were one of the admins in the other thread saying
The only difference I can really see is one guy is being open about it and the other side is just wordlessly ignoring the antag status.
Okay? Those aren't conflicting opinions, nor is that relevant to the discussion here. I still think people should request an antag ban if they don't want to play it, but if someone doesn't want to do that and instead would rather just do their job for the time being, either because they don't feel like participating or they can't meaningfully contribute at the time, I'm not going to punish them unless they're being dicks about it.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
I think this is something that people are forgetting about - if you're really that concerned that someone takes your name and says something shitty, it can be proven via logs that it wasn't you.Higgin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:57 pm It might be said that rather than making it a point of policy, outside of obvious sabotage or spoiler behavior covered elsewhere, the best outcome is people who know they don't want to play a conversion antag coming forward when they know to either get banned from it or to hand it off.
As far as the concerns about putting your identity on the line by handing it off to another player, there's nothing sacrosanct about it - we allow voice changers, changelings, comms agents, and now with the advanced plastic surgery that too - so I don't make too much of a fuss about that. If it's abused to try to really smear somebody OOCly or bait a ban, I imagine that would be a pretty quick Rule 1 violation and easily ruled-out in logs - but so many of the consequences of statics are quiet and opaque, there is no avoiding some possibility of blowback.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
already have a precedent for this.Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
i'd remove every rule except for rule 1 if it were possible, but there's a reason that things have to be specified sometimes. fortunately this was already specified in the rules, so this thread seems a little redundant.Boot wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 9:25 pm At the end of the day is Robust Mctider gets converted and decides to grow weed instead of playing cultist they aren't assisting to the best of their ability. If as some admins have said in this chat that they're only going to enforce the rule if they're being a dick about then just remove this section entirely as rule 1 already exists.
chesh - uphold rulingGhosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.
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