Devilish evilmin traumatizes poor CMO into not playing

[Timonk]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=36176

tbh CMO is 100% correct

[iwishforducks]

200 BC, the great wall of admin complaint

[PapaMichael]

Background for the peanut gallery, this complaint originated from a conversation in the mannicord about players feeling targeted by bwoinks and immediately going on the defensive. TBM said that admins used to be more confrontational out the gate and gave some examples of how admins are "supposed" to open tickets, MatrixOne said that didn't gel with their experiences at all, and another admin encouraged them to bring it up.

It's a shame we've gotten so utterly mired in walls of texts about what occurred that round IC, since I think it's utterly irrelevant to the point at hand.

[DaBoss]

The ahelp messages from the admin are massively aggressive and give off goonstation administration vibes (not a good thing!). A bit ironic that the charge is "swining your dick around "just because you can"" because...

[Timberpoes]

It's a mixed complaint. Partially to get clarification on what a Head of Staff's lane is - Manuel has admins that are absolutely on diametrically opposed sides of this coin.

Some admins think a head's entire department is their lane and they can do a little dick swinging if they like, it's their place to organise and have running as they please.

Some admins think that heads are delegator roles that can't actually physically do anything in their department if even one department member is doing that thing and the head's lane is ??????????? just playing Habbo Hotel or something I guess.

As for the ticket conduct? Terrible. Reminds me of viewtopic.php?p=680978 all over again.

No admin is taught to go into a ticket swinging and not giving the player a chance to explain their side of the story. It's classic grounds for an accepted complaint. Dragmeme already decided they had all the facts in place before they spoke to the player, gave them no reasonable chance to explain themself until the player de-escalated the needlessly aggro admin back down to not being a dick to the player. That's bad, wrong, badong and I'm not going to tolerate it quietly.

2024-05-13 19:56:07: Reply from thedragmeme: You were told to fuck off because with zero communication you got in the way of your chemist who is already in the process of setting up a factory. If you need chemicals quick and in a timely manner you also have access to the pharmacy

Drag didn't actually talk to the chemist in question until 2024-05-13 20:04:32, in other words dragmeme didn't speak to the chemist and get the chemist's side of the story before they dove into the ticket with the CMO claiming to know all the facts.

Just because they repassed their trial after their last conduct faux pas doesn't wipe the slate clean for that and previous issues.

tl;dr thedragmeme has to chill the fuck out and stop jumping into tickets at top aggro levels. It's dumb, it causes players to dislike tickets with admins and there's no reason to be a holier-than-thou judgemental dick to players by talking down to them.

2024-05-13 19:54:35: Ticket Opened by thedragmeme: Hey, dont be a dick to your staff. You need to let people have an oppertunity to engage with their job content before you take over their entire space. Just because you're the CMO it dosent mean you can be an ass.

Hey, don't be a dick to your playerbase. You need to let people have an opportunity to engage with the ticket before you reach your conclusion. Just because you're the admin doesn't mean you can be an ass.

[Archie700]

Some admins think a head's entire department is their lane and they can do a little dick swinging if they like, it's their place to organise and have running as they please.

Some admins think that heads are delegator roles that can't actually physically do anything in their department if even one department member is doing that thing and the head's lane is ??????????? just playing Habbo Hotel or something I guess.

Both of these are completely wrong in my opinion and I believe the head has every right to take a role that isn't just delegating as long as their actions are reasonable and they don't try to get in other people's way without good reason.

[Timberpoes]

Some admins think a head's entire department is their lane and they can do a little dick swinging if they like, it's their place to organise and have running as they please.

Some admins think that heads are delegator roles that can't actually physically do anything in their department if even one department member is doing that thing and the head's lane is ??????????? just playing Habbo Hotel or something I guess.

Both of these are completely wrong in my opinion and I believe the head has every right to take a role that isn't just delegating as long as their actions are reasonable and they don't try to get in other people's way without good reason.

That is pretty much the middle ground most of us aim for. Heads can dictate how other players do their job or take over from other players or get in the way of other players because the head is the boss. You shouldn't just be demoting people FNR or whatever, but you can infringe on your subordinates and ask them to complete reasonable tasks and expect those reasonable tasks to be completed. Choosing to ignore your department head is an IC decision that can have IC consequences.

Even RPR 3 states the chain of command is important and includes "If you're not in the Chain of Command, your department head is your boss and they can fire you."

I played head roles like pure RP roles, but it's not the only way to play and when I had a head that wanted to get hands on and do stuff, I did my best to facilitate that and keep on their good side so I could barter other benefits later like increased access or trying to get them to help me get some gamer gear later since I helped them out etc.

[iwishforducks]

i have much more to say but i would like to say that im not a fan of the first response to this being “i took no action against you, why is this a complaint instead of feedback?”

[WineAllWine]

I'm sick of wall of texts complaints. This isn't college, you're not gonna lose points if you don't hit the word count, keep it short and sweet people.

It's not even just the length, some posts are just wordy for wordiness' sake. If you look at Timber's posts they tend to be long but they're not pointlessly so.

If I'm a headmin I'm either adding a mandatory tldr to all FNR posts or employing Timber full time as a translator. Against their will.

(Edit: The original post is actually pretty good, thanks to the bulleted lists, it's the replies that are harder to read)

[TypicalRig]

A lot of things not to like about this:
-pretty much the easiest catch all phrase for starting a bwoink that seems to net the best response is a neutral "hey can you explain the scenario between [you] and [name]?" neutral, no assumptions, no bias, and doesn't make players feel targetted out the gate.
-Confusion about a head's role. If they're just meant to be delegators and fill-ins for missing/incompetent ranks, that doesn't really let them do much. Do you have a project for your department as a head? Is everyone relevant interested in the project? If not, would proceeding with the project anyway disrupt them? If it disrupts them, to what degree? There's a huge difference between slightly being inconvenienced by the boss that you share a space with, and a project where it's impossible for you to work. The CMO did seem to consider the space factor. As a botanist, that usually gets less space, I also get annoyed when multiple non-botanists enter and want to use the trays, but it's still workable, not a round ruiner.
-Communication on the chemist's side. CMO expressed verbal interest in chemistry by asking about forma. Obviously that's not a distinct "hey I'm gonna setup camp here" but it's a pretty good indicator that they might want to get something there. Chemist went from being ICly snooty, to ICly hostile. But the chemist himself owned up to this, and I know how it feels when you try to do something for multiple rounds only for it to get stopped each time. All he did was weld an airlock, so... even on MRP, no harm done?
-"Why is this a complaint instead of feedback?" Admin feedback threads more or less aren't as heavily moderated and allows unrelated parties to reply to said feedbck. Encourages dogpiling when negative feedback is given. Feedback also doesn't guarantee headmins will intervene in the case.

also not to be an overly cynical "what if" doom poster but if drag had noted for this I bet the note would've still survived an appeal. not because it's right to note for this but the bar for a note to be valid is ridiculously low and the bar to appeal a note is ridiculously high. (factually accurate and not overly harsh) then the CMO wouldnt be able to complain about the admin's conduct related to the note even though how drag acted was not ideal...

If I'm a headmin I'm either adding a mandatory tldr to all FNR posts or employing Timber full time as a translator. Against their will.

i feel like this is half joking half serious but considering the percentage of non-native english speakers on our server excessively WAHHHing about posts not being concise isn't really the hill to die on

[Archie700]

I'm sick of wall of texts complaints. This isn't college, you're not gonna lose points if you don't hit the word count, keep it short and sweet people.

It's not even just the length, some posts are just wordy for wordiness' sake. If you look at Timber's posts they tend to be long but they're not pointlessly so.

If I'm a headmin I'm either adding a mandatory tldr to all FNR posts or employing Timber full time as a translator. Against their will.

(Edit: The original post is actually pretty good, thanks to the bulleted lists, it's the replies that are harder to read)

tl;dr

[WineAllWine]

I'm sick of wall of texts complaints. This isn't college, you're not gonna lose points if you don't hit the word count, keep it short and sweet people.

It's not even just the length, some posts are just wordy for wordiness' sake. If you look at Timber's posts they tend to be long but they're not pointlessly so.

If I'm a headmin I'm either adding a mandatory tldr to all FNR posts or employing Timber full time as a translator. Against their will.

(Edit: The original post is actually pretty good, thanks to the bulleted lists, it's the replies that are harder to read)

tl;dr

write less words

[DrAmazing343]

I'm sick of wall of texts complaints. This isn't college, you're not gonna lose points if you don't hit the word count, keep it short and sweet people.

It's not even just the length, some posts are just wordy for wordiness' sake. If you look at Timber's posts they tend to be long but they're not pointlessly so.

If I'm a headmin I'm either adding a mandatory tldr to all FNR posts or employing Timber full time as a translator. Against their will.

(Edit: The original post is actually pretty good, thanks to the bulleted lists, it's the replies that are harder to read)

tl;dr

write less words

T

[WineAllWine]

T

‎

[PapaMichael]

​

[PapaMichael]

wait
wait wait wait
hold the fucking phone

​
Just to prevent a back-and-forth conversation and limit posts that aren't directly relevant to the complaint itself with regards to thedragmeme's contested ticket conduct, now you've both had the opportunity to post about the context of the shift as a whole I think that's all that the headmins and thedragmeme need in general for background info.

I invite you both to utilise the Player's Club on the forums to create and/or chat about this in a peanut post, or to the Discord, or to forum DMs, or to Discord DMs, or really any place else other than this specific complaint thread for any additional tête-à-tête.

​
both... chat about this in a peanut post

Timberpoes is trying to bait a forum noob with no posts to their name before today into posting into their own peanut!!

[Jacquerel]

Timber has always been in favour of people posting in their own peanuts

[DrAmazing343]

]PEANUT POSTERS RISE UP




TL;DR:

[kayozz]

I'll be honest the initial opening was quite confrontational tbh, but Drag seemed to chill out towards the end of the ticket. I think Timberpoes put it far more succinctly than I could.

[warbluke]

Starting an ahelp with anything except "Hey, got a second?" (or minute) should be grounds for an instant deadmin.

[Jackraxxus]

Starting an ahelp with anything except "Hey, got a second?" (or minute) should be grounds for an instant deadmin.

U joke but it is in fact the opposite
if u so much as think about starting an ahelp with 'hey, got a second?' timberpoes 360 no-scopes 3 generations of your family and erases you from history.

[EmpressMaia]

drag is very hostile in most of their interactions ive had with them

[Justice12354]

Starting an ahelp with anything except "Hey, got a second?" (or minute) should be grounds for an instant deadmin.

U joke but it is in fact the opposite
if u so much as think about starting an ahelp with 'hey, got a second?' timberpoes 360 no-scopes 3 generations of your family and erases you from history.

I'm really hoping they're baiting

[MatrixOne]

I appreciate seeing everyone's thoughts on the topic. I was very verbose, true, but I wanted to get ahead of any possible deflections etc by addressing every issue in the main post. I had no idea what sort of response it'd get, so I did my best to try and cover every avenue and hope for the best.

I'm happy with how it went so far, and even the chemist ended up responding.

Most of my admin interactions since my return to TG have been very negative, it only takes a couple such in a row to make someone completely lose faith. But seeing people's response to this, maybe it was just bad luck. When bad luck stacks you can get discouraged, though.

The only good interaction I had was with Rhials, just look at how awesome their tone and opening was in the ticket:

---- Log Begins ----
2024-04-26 00:19:50: Ticket Opened by theduffelbag: Hi, can you give me your side on the story regarding you beating the clown down into crit? I'm just investigating for now
2024-04-26 00:20:07: Reply from matrixone: Sure, he trespassed and stole my plumbing device so I beat him to crit and took him to medbay
2024-04-26 00:27:44: Reply from theduffelbag: Copy copy, just try to at least order the clown out or to stand down before going straight for the physical approach when you want them to sod off. They shouldn't have been doing what they were doing, but immediately beating them down to a pulp isn't very adherent to the standards of escalation. I'd like to clarify that you're not in any trouble for this but just to go for a verbal warning before a situation like this arises
2024-04-26 00:28:43: Reply from matrixone: Thanks. You seem pretty nice, it's often a very different tone. I'll use my words next time (though he didn't say a word when he trespassed and stole, so I felt it appropriate to do the same).
2024-04-26 00:29:20: Reply from theduffelbag: Oh don't get me wrong, it was a very appropriate response, it's just good to give them a chance to back off before it reaches that point
2024-04-26 00:29:56: Reply from matrixone: Understood!
2024-04-26 00:37:57: Resolved by TheDuffelbag
---- No Further Messages ----

[Timberpoes]

A lot of things not to like about this:
-pretty much the easiest catch all phrase for starting a bwoink that seems to net the best response is a neutral "hey can you explain the scenario between [you] and [name]?" neutral, no assumptions, no bias, and doesn't make players feel targetted out the gate.

To take a risk de-classifying parts of our training/conduct guides internally, here's a snippet from our internal guide to rule enforcement:

Spoiler:

Admins initiating a conversation should do so with the following points in mind,
- Be neutral in tone and avoid being accusatory. While it is not necessary to build a rapport with the individual being talked to, it is essential to maintain at least a neutral relationship between you and the player. This is so the conversation is less likely to become hostile and the player is less likely to become defensive or evasive. Players that are not defensive or evasive may provide more information. If the player is expected to be evasive, remaining non-accusatory also makes it less likely for what you say to tip off the player on what they want to be evasive/deceptive about.

- Example, "Hi there, what happened between you and x?", is a good way to initiate an ahelp when looking into a player suspected of griefing and killing player x.

So it's something we do preach.

also not to be an overly cynical "what if" doom poster but if drag had noted for this I bet the note would've still survived an appeal. not because it's right to note for this but the bar for a note to be valid is ridiculously low and the bar to appeal a note is ridiculously high. (factually accurate and not overly harsh) then the CMO wouldnt be able to complain about the admin's conduct related to the note even though how drag acted was not ideal...

viewtopic.php?p=680978

In the above appeal, we removed a correct note because it was placed using incorrect procedure. One of the headmins back then which +1'd that decision is a current headmin again today, so it's not impossible in the hypothetical that this was another ctrl-c ctrl-v. The difficulty getting results like that being said term had me, and I was very willing to get into appeals and complaints to actually get them resolved fairly; which meant once an issue was highlighted players didn't have to fight hard to get a headmin to take it seriously.

That appeal also resulted in a conduct strike without the player having to open a complaint.

[Timberpoes]

The only good interaction I had was with Rhials, just look at how awesome their tone and opening was in the ticket:

Please drop a comment about it in viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36116

Feedback is important as Duffy's a new admin and still on trial. When admins handle tickets well and players leave notes that we did good, it's a positive feedback loop that makes it more likely future players get the same treatment.

[kayozz]

Timberpoes we don't deserve you.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

You could say a lot about this but in the spirit of Wine's quest against thoroughness we can keep it down to "Rare dragmeme L"

[iwishforducks]

You could say a lot about this but in the spirit of Wine's quest against thoroughness we can keep it down to "Rare dragmeme L"

i feel like their hostility has been an issue since day 1, honestly; dragmeme’s been reprimanded for hostile ticket conduct before. im very disappointed to see that drag hasn’t improved on that end. i dont know, i feel like boiling it down to a “rare L” is dismissive about the issue.

[PapaMichael]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

[MatrixOne]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

I've had an admin tell me to stop making caramel as chemist when the chefs were refusing to cook, and the min manually deleted my caramel and happiness patches (latter I guess by mistake) before I could even respond and warned me not to make caramel. They again cited the "Stay in your lane" rule at me, when I used my lane of chemistry to feed the starving medbay. I'll write up an admin feedback for it at some point, if I have the strength. Once again a noteless bwoink, most likely not sparked by chefs but the admin just taking it upon himself to stop me from doing chemistry. When you get enough of these points on a graph it feels like admins just hate chemistry, or you. It was part of why I switched statics for a while, I felt like I was being grudged or something.

(also the title of the current thread made me laugh)

I've had some neutral interactions as well, but not "good" interactions, just neutral - I mentioned one in a feedback I wrote for Dunham, where he was super nice but I disagreed with a need to bwoink me. The neutrals were not outright hostile, or anything like that. But Duffy was the only "good" one.

Please drop a comment about it in viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36116

Feedback is important as Duffy's a new admin and still on trial. When admins handle tickets well and players leave notes that we did good, it's a positive feedback loop that makes it more likely future players get the same treatment.

Airdropped some deserved positivity for Duffy.

[WineAllWine]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

Yeah a bit odd. Almost every bwoink I see is "hey, can you tell me about what happened between you and him?"

(I looked in my own bwoink history, the most recent bwoink that wasn't like this was 'stop it.' to someone who was spanning alert level changes)

And I have NEVER seen a 'hey got a minute?' in the wild.

Maybe manuel admins run differently, idk

[Timonk]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

personally speaking, the admins have been very rude recently so i believe them

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

personally speaking, the admins have been very rude recently so i believe them

Okay, I know this is a bit bad, but that picture is also really funny.

[Timonk]

And I have NEVER seen a 'hey got a minute?' in the wild.

[WineAllWine]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

personally speaking, the admins have been very rude recently so i believe them

Can I see the rest of the context for that? It looks funny

[WineAllWine]

And I have NEVER seen a 'hey got a minute?' in the wild.

This doesn't count as 'in the wild'; this is seeing a portrait of a 'hey got a minute' in the British Museum

[iansdoor]

Ooo.. right Alice. What kind of factory were you making? Was that the same one you did 6 times in a row that day ish?

[Timonk]

► Show Spoiler

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Ooo.. right Alice. What kind of factory were you making? Was that the same one you did 6 times in a row that day ish?

It was, but like I said in the complaint, if they asked me to make sali/oxandrolone, I would have done so. I really enjoy actually being given tasks by my department boss, it makes me feel useful.

[Higgin]

General Admin Conduct, Rules, and Expectations
Admin Rules
Headmins will often write directives that admins should follow. These are found here.
Be in IRC or Discord if you are adminning on the servers.
Don't cheat. Do not use admin powers for your own benefit. Don't use your powers to abuse other players.
Don't handle an adminhelp that involves you. Admins can't involve themselves as both an admin and player in a matter. This also means adminhelping like any other player would if you want to report an issue. Another admin will be needed to help you.
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.
Privacy is expected by the players. Do not publicize IP(s) and computer IDs (cids) anywhere in game or outside.
Don't be a hypocrite. If you're doing something you'd normally ban someone for doing, you're breaking this.
Don't spam sounds and events. If you're queuing sounds one after the other, or if you're running an event every day, you're doing it too often.

General Admin Guidelines
If you're unsure about something, ask your fellow admins for opinions in game and on adminbus. If there is lots of disagreement over an issue, ask a Head Admin for clarification.
Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
Please be careful if you choose to ‘test’ something you have little idea about. If someone asks something like “How much damage does a stunbaton do”, that can be checked easily, but more outlandish questions, like pertaining to var editing, should be investigated on your own local server and not the thunderdome, as you risk crashing the server.
You're expected to de-admin while playing a sensitive role like security, the Captain, or the AI. You get to avoid the barrage of metainfo, and we can avoid player suspicions of admins cheating (Yes, we've had this real issue before).
If you've opened a ticket during a round, do not readmin until after the ticket has been resolved. If a ticket about you has been opened, discussion regarding it should be kept to ahelps only.
Admins who use admin buttons to mess with their friends or players at random are rolling the die when it comes to admin complaints and do so at their own risk. If new admins are picking up bad habits from watching tenured admins, those admins may be held accountable.
Basically, be sure to respect player boundaries when it comes to messing with them, and be responsible for the results of your actions.

bolding mine, with greater emphasis on the first one - I don't think anyone would like to be approached like the ticket logs reflect, Drag included, who has a lot of time in the seat as a command/med main and has almost certainly run into these sorts of intradepartmental conflicts in the wild.

people bring their best at any given moment, which isn't always good, and it's far from always to easy situations - it's the hard ones we trip up on. a trip isn't necessarily a fall, but it ultimately needs to be considered against the bruises and scrapes inflicted on players, peace made between those hurt and those hurting, and sorted out whether those risks of harm that anyone with power can pose would be acceptable to any player (which we are first) for the good a person has done and can do.

as timber posts up and others have commented on, there's a lot to unpack and still probably be figured out in a policy thread about how much of a lane any head has over and beside members of their dept. Imitates's frustrations are understandable, and their comments are a commendable step towards making this right between the players involved if not the CMO and the admin.

[iansdoor]

Ooo.. right Alice. What kind of factory were you making? Was that the same one you did 6 times in a row that day ish?

It was, but like I said in the complaint, if they asked me to make sali/oxandrolone, I would have done so. I really enjoy actually being given tasks by my department boss, it makes me feel useful.

Not what I asked. Were you making funpowder factory?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Ooo.. right Alice. What kind of factory were you making? Was that the same one you did 6 times in a row that day ish?

It was, but like I said in the complaint, if they asked me to make sali/oxandrolone, I would have done so. I really enjoy actually being given tasks by my department boss, it makes me feel useful.

Not what I asked. Were you making funpowder factory?

Oh, not gunpowder, no, it was, as posted by the complainant, meth/ephedrine/mannitol. Didn't get to finish it all though because it was a revolution shift which ended early.

[WineAllWine]

► Show Spoiler

Ah yeah I remember that, thanks for the trip down memory lane!

[Blacklist897]

the unspoken elephant in the room here is that matrixone is asserting that this isn't just drag, but that every admin but duffy has been acting this way.
it's weird. it's not that i don't believe them, but i've literally never personally experienced anything remotely resembling this hostility myself; i don't think duffy's conduct in that ticket is anything interesting or exceptional, all my bwoinks have basically gone that way.
so... it's unclear how prolific of a problem this is from an outside perspective

I've had an admin tell me to stop making caramel as chemist when the chefs were refusing to cook, and the min manually deleted my caramel and happiness patches (latter I guess by mistake) before I could even respond and warned me not to make caramel. They again cited the "Stay in your lane" rule at me, when I used my lane of chemistry to feed the starving medbay. I'll write up an admin feedback for it at some point, if I have the strength. Once again a noteless bwoink, most likely not sparked by chefs but the admin just taking it upon himself to stop me from doing chemistry. When you get enough of these points on a graph it feels like admins just hate chemistry, or you. It was part of why I switched statics for a while, I felt like I was being grudged or something.

any caramel patch maker deserves to have the patches deleted

[MatrixOne]

any caramel patch maker deserves to have the patches deleted

I can understand where people who don't like caramel are coming from. I think when there are chefs who are putting effort into cooking it's a totally asshole move to make caramel. But to me this is not a one and done issue; I believe that if the chefs are making troll food (death sandwiches, vomit rats) or no food at all, it's valid for a chemist to make caramel for their medbay. And that was when the admin deleted mine. So I can both understand and agree with the sentiment of not liking caramel, but also not approve of a decision which wasn't made in a vacuum. I don't like just blanket "all should be deleted," that seems not very reasonable and easy to say for someone who doesn't play medbay where people run on red hunger a bunch.

In fact, I've had a captain ask me to make caramel but I had to refuse because I was afraid of drawing admin ire, so that's one of the consequences of thoughtless bwoinks and blanket rules, and a lack of trust that the admins would consider a situation rather than just act on their dislikes of a certain system.

[WineAllWine]

any caramel patch maker deserves to have the patches deleted

I can understand where people who don't like caramel are coming from. I think when there are chefs who are putting effort into cooking it's a totally asshole move to make caramel. But to me this is not a one and done issue; I believe that if the chefs are making troll food (death sandwiches, vomit rats) or no food at all, it's valid for a chemist to make caramel for their medbay. And that was when the admin deleted mine. So I can both understand and agree with the sentiment of not liking caramel, but also not approve of a decision which wasn't made in a vacuum. I don't like just blanket "all should be deleted," that seems not very reasonable and easy to say for someone who doesn't play medbay where people run on red hunger a bunch.

In fact, I've had a captain ask me to make caramel but I had to refuse because I was afraid of drawing admin ire, so that's one of the consequences of thoughtless bwoinks and blanket rules, and a lack of trust that the admins would consider a situation rather than just act on their dislikes of a certain system.

I don't really understand why an admin would care if you make caramel.

I'd also like to apologise for saying your posts were too long

[MatrixOne]

I don't really understand why an admin would care if you make caramel.

I'd also like to apologise for saying your posts were too long

Oh, well thank you! I read in the edit of your post you said my bulleted first thread was readable, so I didn't take offense really (and the memes that followed were funny, some guy posted a blank response...).

Caramel is a contested issue, people take issue with it as evidenced above and for good reason. One of the headmins even made a strange post under a picture of my patches saying he wants to delete medbay, so there's that too:

► Show Spoiler

This and some other admin interactions basically tell me I'm not allowed to do it, it's not worth the potential trouble. And it's sad because to me it's one of those things where in a perfect world you could do it "sometimes" - but the "sometimes" will just vary by admin, so you're not safe.

[Atlanta-Ned]

I was very verbose, true, but I wanted to get ahead of any possible deflections etc by addressing every issue in the main post. I had no idea what sort of response it'd get, so I did my best to try and cover every avenue and hope for the best.

pro gamer strat for anyone else posting complaints or appeals: don't do this!

[Timberpoes]

I'd say more appeals and complaints get rejected because the player gave too little info than those where the player gave too much.