D.I.A.A.S - not following laws because they dislike a lawset

[Covenant]

Your byond account: Covenant25
Your character name: Marco Kemerer
Their character name: D.I.A.A.S
Their byond account: The_Vinyl_Scratch
Server and time: Sybil, 07:00ish GMT, 27/08/2014
Logs and/or screenshots: Don't have them, I didn't think to take them until it'd been too long. Sorry.

Description of what happened:

I was playing the Captain. I noticed immediately we didn't have any security forces at all, so after doing a couple of other things I went into the AI upload to set the AI to Paladin to help out with miscreants a little and safeguard the station while our security forces arrived.

D.I.A.A.S warned me that if I was uploading Paladin, it wasn't a good idea. He said it 'conflicted with his personality', and could/would result in half the station being killed. I said that the only reason that would happen is if the AI didn't know how to follow its own laws. I said an AI doesn't get to choose its own lawset, or something along those lines. The AI then makes it clear he's going to be very obstructive, and a minute later announces on the general radio to any possible changelings that he won't hunt them and they can message him and let him know who they are. I explained that changelings are harmful, by their nature, to human life (as made clear in policy "2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already)"). The AI disagreed with this.

I realised he was going to continue to be obstructive, so I went to the AI Upload to write a freeform law. I didn't know at first whether to write one specifically about changelings being hostile to human life, or a more general one to get the AI to be more helpful and compliant, but I decided on the latter. Before I could upload it, the AI turned off the upload, saying he wouldn't permit me to upload a freeform law.

At this point I could see he obviously wasn't following his lawset properly (specifically, respecting legitimate authority), and could be malfunctioning. If not, he still needed to be replaced, as how can you rely on an AI that can't follow its own laws (Respecting legitimate authority is Law 2. The AI had no reason to believe I was evil, in relation to Law 1)? I went to its core, got stunned and arrested by its sec borg, who then let me go after realising he had no authority to do so, and then 'escorted' me into the core to check the card. I carded the AI, teleported out, and began wiping it, asking the crewmembers for a volunteer to replace our defective AI. DIAAS then ordered the borgs to kill me. The AI was wiped, the borgs then stunned me and dragged me into space until I suffocated. Apparently the borgs also harmed a lot of other crewmembers after this point, though other people would have to elaborate on that, I didn't see it myself.

After this point DIAAS was gloating in deadchat about how if he's an AI in the future, basically you better only use lawsets he likes, or else he'll do the same thing again. An admin who was present at the time specifically pointing out that he was being (I quote) 'a dick for ooc reasons' did nothing to temper this attitude. I believe it was MrStonedOne (the admin, I mean).

Why they should be banned:

An AI shouldn't be the arbiter of what lawsets it will and will not follow to the best of its ability. We all sometimes have to follow laws, or lawsets, we don't like sometimes. Going so far as to disregard your laws in order to cause trouble out of spite because you dislike the lawset that's been uploaded to you is messed up. Disregarding your laws anyway is bad, but I don't care when it's an honest mistake or a legitimate difference in interpretation. In this situation, DIAAS was clearly doing it, as the admin said, to be a dick for OOC reasons.

To make it clear, I don't think he should be 'banned', just job-banned from playing AI. For a while at least. Another player present at the time summed it up better than I could - 'You're a shitty AI for going out of your way to counteract a very clear definition given to you by the captain and then causing enough shit to get yourself wiped. Then claiming that was good enough to make him valid.'

[MrStonedOne]

To be clear, I asked that this be brought to fnr after looking into it because I just don't know how to rule on this.

That being said, I don't like how any of this played out (On both ends).

To confirm some things, He did wipe the ai, the ai did tell the borgs to kill him after he started the wipe, the borgs did complete the request via spacing.

The laws were standard Paladin no other laws uploaded.

[Pandarsenic]

Barring a really good explanation from The Vinyl Scratch, I'm going to apply a jobban. I'm certain he's received warnings before for acting how he wants instead of actually following his lawset.

[Reviire]

From my perspective:

The round started, and after setting up tcomms and stuff, the captain went into the upload. I told him not to upload Paladin, because it's not a good lawset (This had nothing to do with what happened later). I left it at that, after explaining why it's not good for me. I never in any way made any clear announcement of being obstructive.

There was a report of a changeling, nothing harmful. I announce that I will accept any changelings, if they do not commit any evil acts. The captain, after trying to tell me that changelings are harmful because they have abilities that can hurt people (Security has laserguns, so what), goes to the upload. He says he's going to change my lawset, but takes the freeform. I assume he's going to upload something telling me that changelings are evil, so i depower the upload and wait for him to leave.

He proceeds to my core and asks me to open up, the borg tases him and removed him, which i tell it to let him check my laws. The captain then teleports out with a hand teleporter, and i ask my Secborg to arrest him. He then teleports to the brig, walks inside the space-airlock several times, and wipes me. I give the borgs an order to kill, due to him wiping me for not automatically making changelings evil. We both stay dead for the whole round.

My reason for not defining changelings as evil because they're changelings, is because i don't want to validhunt. I like to give all antagonists a fair chance. With paladin, I can. Evil isn't defined by what you are, but by what you do. At the start of the round, technically everyone is good.

An AI doesn't have to follow the laws the way you want them too. The lawsets are designed to be vague and given to AI interpretation. I was being a dick for OOC reasons, and my reason was because I didn't want to kill them just because they happened to roll changeling. I never obstructed you in any way, until you started to wipe me.

To clarify: I was being a dick to you because you wanted me to validhunt

Also, <scaredofshadows> I'd need to know more about the round, but paladin shouldn't be treated as 'it's valid hunting time'

[Pandarsenic]

I dunno, man... Changelings are pretty unambiguously dangerous/harmful, but I do respect the right to refuse people trying to make you a tool of valids. This is a tough case.

I'd like to hear more from both sides, I suppose.

[Reviire]

Well, i never intended to obstruct the captain in what he was doing, as long as he did not commit evil.

I treat antags as anyone else when they commit evil. If they punch someone, they get brigged for assault. If they get assaulted, the attacker gets brigged. They get punished according to their actions, just like everyone else.

The main reason I ask for Paladin not to be uploaded, is because of my morals and definitions of evil. This has nothing to do with the whole Changelings aren't evil by nature thing though, because basing something off meta-knowledge (They're antags), or the fact that changelings can kill is retarded.

Anyway. I wanted to treat Changelings as crew members until they commit something evil, something that gives me a reason (Not 'they're a ling') to kill them. The Captain had problems with this, and when I did not allow him to make me act that way, he wiped me.

I don't really have anything more to add to this, because i put it all in my previous post.

Anyway, following my laws the way i interpret them is not "Not knowing how to follow laws". Because i don't automatically call antags evil does not mean anything, besides i'm not a valid-hunting faggot. I protect friendly antagonists, killing them just for the sake of their antag status is an incredibly shit thing to do.

I know what the policy says, but I don't care that it says they had to kill someone to get onto the station. Firstly, they have abilities against that which i can use to argue IC, secondly, why should i use that as a reason to valid them, i detest validhunting for any reason.

[Pandarsenic]

ADMIN LOG: Pandarsenic/(Ann Taggrolle) has added a JOB_TEMPBAN for thevinylscratch (AI) (10080 minutes) with the reason: "You have to follow your lawset even if you don''t like it. No redefining stuff at random to suit your OOC desires." to the ban database.

[Pandarsenic]

(4:08:08 AM) The_Vinyl_Scratch: Really
(4:08:13 AM) The_Vinyl_Scratch: Pandar?
(4:08:38 AM) The_Vinyl_Scratch: Well i probably have to go, but are we really encouraging validhunting as AI's now
(4:09:00 AM) The_Vinyl_Scratch: My lawset was never altered from default paladin, how does refusing to kill changelings just because they're antags warrant a jobban

"2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already)"

Law 2: Respect legitimate authority. i.e. the captain

Law 5: Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. i.e. the murdering changelings

[Covenant]

I'd like to point out two things if I can, as it isn't moved to Resolved yet.

First, I didn't make the AI Paladin in order to turn him into a constant valid-hunting asshole, I just wanted him to be able to work off his own initiative to help out. I.E if he sees someone breaking into a secure area or doing something bad, he can bolt the guy in, or tell one of his borgs to follow a suspected murderer and make sure he doesn't get out of sight, or things like that. There's a line between 'AI spends all its resources patrolling shady corners and following assistants with insulateds' and ASIMOV, surely. I didn't have anything specific in mind, I just thought having the AI be a little more Lawful Good would be a helpful thing as we had literally no security force at all at the time I did it. For the record, the freeform law I wrote mentioned nothing relating to changelings.

More importantly, I want to say that after thinking about it, wiping the AI felt like perhaps an overly strong reaction, but it came about because at the time I felt there was nothing else I could do (as soon as I carded it and teleported out, his borgs were coming to arrest me and get him returned to the core). If I had it to do over again, I'd have stored the AI somewhere secure and inaccessible to borgs, like the safe, and left it there until we got a second AI online, with the hope that the new one would balance this one out. I have limited experience with multiple AIs in action though, so perhaps that would have been a poor solution.

[Reviire]

Pandarsenic. The policy does say that, but why should i automatically valid them because of what the policy says? I want to give them equal chance because they're still a player, it's unfair to just kill them because they're an antag, even when acting peaceful (Never commit an evil act)

I also had reason to believe the captain wasn't legitimate authority. Mostly, the wiping me because I believed changelings should get an equal chance.



Random note: Someone brought up you can respect someone, but you can kill them at the same time. Just bringing this up fnr

[Covenant]

I also had reason to believe the captain wasn't legitimate authority. Mostly, the wiping me because I believed changelings should get an equal chance.

You didn't have any reason to believe I wasn't legitimate authority when you depowered your upload. Unless me saying that 'Changelings are by their nature hostile to human life' can be twisted into making me illegitimate authority. Also, no matter how many times you keep saying that I wiped you because you didn't want to spend all round murdering changelings, it just isn't true. I wiped you because you were obviously incapable of following your own laws.

Either way, the matter's over and done with now. It's pointless to continue arguing, so I won't reply further.

[Atticat]

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

[Pandarsenic]

If the captain is, say, executing people for littering, he isn't legitimate. You can't say he's illegitimate for wanting to tweak your laws.

The Paladin AI is meant to be roleplayed as someone who is zealously Lawful Good. If there were changelings TRYING to be friendly, this would be different, but INVITING them to work with you from point 0 is a bit ogre the line. But I could normally still allow it if it made sense IC, not as a method of getting back at someone for changing your lawset.

But the real problem is things like

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

If this were a single instance I'd warn, but this is the latest in a long string of Vinyl fabricating barely-legitimate or illegitimate reasons to act in a certain way by twisting laws.

[mrpain]

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

I was that other AI. He refused a law 2 order and got lasered nearly to death for it. I'm tired of silicons thinking they can do whatever they want without consequence.

[callanrockslol]

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

I was that other AI. He refused a law 2 order and got lasered nearly to death for it. I'm tired of silicons thinking they can do whatever they want without consequence.

He refused more than one Law 2 order that round, hell half the command staff were in the core and he kept tazing us before we could finish setting you up.

[Reviire]

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

I was that other AI. He refused a law 2 order and got lasered nearly to death for it. I'm tired of silicons thinking they can do whatever they want without consequence.

He refused more than one Law 2 order that round, hell half the command staff were in the core and he kept tazing us before we could finish setting you up.

Can you please explain to me how i was tasing you before i was even built?

[callanrockslol]

Vinyl has stretched the laws before as AI when I was captain after receiving orders he didn't want to follow. In the case I'm describing, science wanted to create a new AI and as captain I green-lighted it. During Vinyl's construction within the AI's core the original AI proved nervous about the situation and advised against it. For the sake of the first AI I decided on moving Vinyl somewhere else to reduce tension and make something unique of him. Vinyl refused to unbolt and made claims of possible harm if he was moved outside the core. Make of it what you will.

I was that other AI. He refused a law 2 order and got lasered nearly to death for it. I'm tired of silicons thinking they can do whatever they want without consequence.

He refused more than one Law 2 order that round, hell half the command staff were in the core and he kept tazing us before we could finish setting you up.

Can you please explain to me how i was tasing you before i was even built?

My mistake, it was the other AI that would not stop tazing everything in sight, forget I said anything I wasn't paying attention to the paladin crap that was going on but I'll check my logs to see if anything interesting is in there about it

EDIT: No logs due to dead comms