Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

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oranges
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Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:02 am #475309

Idea: merge botany and chemistry into one department, name tbc

Why: Quite simple, for better or worse there is tension between botany and chemistry as a result of many chemicals being available in botany, and chemistry right now has a very limited depth to it's actual job system, which mostly consists of pushing buttons on the chem dispenser in certain ratios.

Not the most mechanically interesting job!

If we combine the two roles, we get a single job with quite a bit more mechanical depth, and the tension between the two roles goes away.

We can also make chemistry more in depth and required without the criticisms arising for chemists having to sit around for ages or require explicit help from botany until they get reagents, now they have proactive things they can be working on around growing plants.

As a nice side benefit botany should stop trying to lynch chemistry so much for mutagen or a dispenser.

The proposal is to do the following
one) modify the chemistry dispenser to not have an infinite supply of reagents, instead it will start with a basic amount of only some of the reagents (mostly focused on the medical tree) and possibly a small supply of mutagen to get botany started.
two) make all base chemistry reagents available via botany plants (maybe some other sources later), growable at rates that does require some compromise on the part of the new department about where
they assign their resources
three) make these reagents extractable into the chemistry dispenser, providing the source of chemicals for chemistry to make chemistry mixes.
four) remap meta and probably box or delta to have a combined department for this role

The number of job slots will not be reduced by this (job slots will be a combined of the previous chemistry and botany jobs).

Phase 2: coming later
1) more base reagents for chemistry recipes, requiring more plant combos or clever use of other station sources such as cargo.
2) adding lavaland access to this new department and putting rare plants on lavaland with some rarer reagents or traits more desireable, which you can then cross breed with on station plants.
3) potentially a new department head for this department.

This has come about as a result of the discussions and ideas had about chemistry and botany and I'd like to see final comments and criticisms before this is placed into the implementation phase.



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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby TothBrush » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:05 am #475311

>Why: Quite simple, for better or worse there is tension between botany and chemistry as a result of many chemicals being available in botany, and chemistry right now has a very limited depth to it's actual job system, which mostly consists of pushing buttons on the chem dispenser in certain ratios.


Just give botany access to chem. If you don't want to give them access to medical then add an extra side door to chem so botanists can enter through the side without entering through medical to get to chem.

>We can also make chemistry more in depth and required without the criticisms arising for chemists having to sit around for ages or require explicit help from botany until they get reagents, now they have proactive things they can be working on around growing plants.

Chemistry is fine as it is isn't it? When I was a kid I learned almost everything I knew about the game by just spamming out games as a chemist and trying each recipe alongside making various grenades. If you want chemistry to be more in depth, then the medical system needs more depth.
Last edited by TothBrush on Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:07 am #475312

That is effectively the same outcome as this and persists a tension between two roles who are so interdependent on each other.

At least try to understand the problem being tackled before commenting.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby TothBrush » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:08 am #475313

oranges wrote:That is effectively the same outcome as this and persists a tension between two roles who are so interdependent on each other.

At least try to understand the problem being tackled before commenting.


Ok... so what makes your idea of merging them better?

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:08 am #475314

There is no longer a tension between people from one job entering another job's area, eliminating any factionalism that would otherwise exist.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Mickyan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:09 am #475315

Either medbay or the chef gets shafted by this, question is which one?
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby TothBrush » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:10 am #475316

oranges wrote:There is no longer a tension between people from one job entering another job's area, eliminating any factionalism that would otherwise exist.


I mean, crossover between jobs is a good thing. Even when it creates conflict, that conflict is an important part of the game.

The cross over between mining and rnd, rnd and robotics, xeno and rnd, chem and medical, chem and botany ect. are all GOOD for the game, not bad.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:10 am #475317

Neither department would be shafted, there's no basis to believe that, the department can still provide food to the chef and chemicals to medbay.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Mickyan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:14 am #475320

oranges wrote:Neither department would be shafted, there's no basis to believe that, the department can still provide food to the chef and chemicals to medbay.

Distance makes cooperation a lot harder, I'm wondering where you'd place the merged department, current botany or chemistry
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 am #475321

Rather than declaring one true way, what would you prefer to see?

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby angelstarri » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 am #475322

Approved, make a pull request please
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby mickyy5 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:24 am #475334

I disagree strongly, I actually think it should be the direct opposite of what you propose.
Chemistry and botany are already too close, I think they should move further apart, this being done by reducing the current chemicals in botany plants and replacing it with their own unique chemicals which do unique effects, perhaps some heal plants which also turn you a random colour, or weird chemicals which make you speak in a silly voice.

This would kill botany as a job to grow plants and just make it a sweaty job for power gamers. Gone would be chilling with some bees and growing the chef cool veg, because you would be bitched at and broken into for not powergaming max tier chems. If you wanna rework chemistry, then rework chemistry, you don't have to kill another department to do it.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Mickyan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:26 am #475335

oranges wrote:Rather than declaring one true way, what would you prefer to see?

As it currently stands medbay is reliant on chemistry for a lot of things and going hungry isn't going to kill you so there's that

I'd like to see the chef get something in return though, maybe a small hydroponics lab with limited equipment. After all the bartender is something of a chemist-lite role, giving the chef the same treatment but for botany wouldn't be so bad.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby MMMiracles » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:39 am #475339

I assume chemistry would stay in the same general area, so maybe a decent compromise is just to move the public garden to where botany used to be? Chef/bartender will still have close access to their basic needs and they can hit up chemistry for the more complex ones if they can't get the tools required to do it themselves.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:30 am #475351

I'm all for it. Chemistry for the longest time has been kind of too braindead for how good the department's gains are. In addition, most of the time thr chemistry role is itself not actually utilized by powergamers, just the dispenser. Most anyone with access to a circuit imprinter can in fact build their own chem dispenser and do chemistry's job for them. This is particularly a massive detriment to another mechanic that is sorely weakened by this. Virology and viruses. Anyone can cure most viruses with ease simply because of an abundance of reagents on the station.

There has never been anything particularly special about chemistry or its mechanics. And hence why not only is it a role a lot of fresh players play, but a lot of griefy ones too. All of this generally makes trying to get chemists to do anything for any department before they kill themselves in a meth explosion or arrested and murdered for giving the clown mutation/lube smoke is probably going to be a futile task.

Where as botany has a lot more involvement in both complexity and work to reach its goals, and to achieve that quickly requires chemistry assistance up to a point.

Botanists have a reputation for theft to get what they need and quickly, because otherwise the department takes far longer than what some rounds allow to reach what they want. This is in addition to the fact that interacting with chemists can often be like trying to tear your own fingernails off and additionally trying to get engineers to do some simple construction equally painful. Just having the departments be a single cohesive department would absolve all of this and really elevate both roles.

That said I have concerns about four different people wanting to utilize the same resources and space to do their own thing. Four people using hydroponics feels like it would end up with a 'too many cooks' situation. Having one of these guys be dedicated to locating the rare reagents on lavaland and the others be tasked with initial chemical and plant production seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to that, since you already want to grant them lavaland access. And maybe increasing the amount of plants available on lavaland would possibly incentivise some miners to actually use the often forgotten plant bag in their lockers.

I liked the suggestion of the garden being next to the kitchen. I think that way the chefs can still use that space to grow their own plants and provide their own ingrediants without having to worry about chasing up botany for everything, but that botany being able to produce it more easily and effectively wouldn't change because of chemical access.

I guess if that were the case, ideally maybe have this department be attached to supply (either physically and/or functionally)? Where abouts might be a bit tricky though. But at least then you have a faux department head in the form of the QM to co-ordinate them and to whom the station can request required goods. They're already handling supply elsewhere, and botany hasn't REALLY fit into service for some time, as unlike the other service departments it actually has powergaming aspects more than it does roleplaying.

That's really all of my thoughts on this in a big monologue. Not sure what else to add right now.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby BebeYoshi » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:50 am #475358

We already have a "cross departament" and it is gene role, but it doesn't rely on science or vice-versa as it used to, botany with chem would be a great idea because Chem nowadays is just Macro and I think that's awful
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby koimeiji » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:16 am #475366

literally who gang coming through


I like the theme of the idea, I do not like the execution of the idea. I absolutely adore playing botanist and just growing shit that people need, passing out joints, doing general hydro things. I absolutely despise, well, everything about chemistry. Merging them into a single job would, at least for me, kill off any incentive for me to want to play this job.

Merging them not into a single job but into a brand new department is, in my opinion, a better way of handling it. A sort of chem-based department, not truly research, not truly service, not truly medical, but it's own thing. Along with this could come brand new jobs centered around the idea of chemistry. What these jobs could be, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe a geochemist job designed around going to lavaland to find minerals and gemstones specific for chemists to grind up?

Obviously the workload would be much greater for making a whole new department compared to just merging the jobs, but in the end I think it'd be more worth the while, ending a feud between hydro and chemistry (by putting them right next to each other) and introducing new potential jobs.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby nullbear » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:17 am #475368

Alternatively Make chemistry a neutral department, accessible by various jobs around the station.

Botanist: Biochem / Medicine / Narcotics / Organic Chemistry / Materials Processing and Refining
Cargonia: Materials Processing and Refining / Inorganic Chemistry / Materials Synthesis (Plastics, Alloys, Etc.) / Production of Raw Materials for autolathing (or selling for a profit boost (IE plasma + glass is worth less than equivalent volume of plasmaglass)
Virology: Biochem / Medicine / Virology
Medbay: Medicine / Diagnostics / Organic Chemistry / Biochem
Security: Diagnostics (they already have toys tbh)
Science: All of the Above / Explosives / Dangerous Materials
Kitchen/Bar: The mixing of the drinks and condiments and such. They already have their own version of the chem lab. So no changes, really.
Engineering: Uh... Repair and constructive utility stuff? Nothing really tbh, anything useful to them would probs best be requested. Engineering is a busy job. No time for that.


Honestly, The whole issue of chemistry is that, as is, its sole function is to be used by antags, griefers, and to support every other department. Which means that other departments DONT get the support they need without an active chemist, so give them access to chemistry. Chemistry itself has NO RELIANCE on chemistry. Virtually everything that chemistry can make is more useful to ANYONE ELSE than it is for the chemist.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby nullbear » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:21 am #475369

koimeiji wrote:literally who gang coming through


I like the theme of the idea, I do not like the execution of the idea. I absolutely adore playing botanist and just growing shit that people need, passing out joints, doing general hydro things. I absolutely despise, well, everything about chemistry. Merging them into a single job would, at least for me, kill off any incentive for me to want to play this job.

Merging them not into a single job but into a brand new department is, in my opinion, a better way of handling it. A sort of chem-based department, not truly research, not truly service, not truly medical, but it's own thing. Along with this could come brand new jobs centered around the idea of chemistry. What these jobs could be, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe a geochemist job designed around going to lavaland to find minerals and gemstones specific for chemists to grind up?

Obviously the workload would be much greater for making a whole new department compared to just merging the jobs, but in the end I think it'd be more worth the while, ending a feud between hydro and chemistry (by putting them right next to each other) and introducing new potential jobs.


As koimeiji says, Botany is already a fleshed out role with plenty of content.

Medbay is already a fleshed out role with plenty of content.

Science is already a fleshed out role with plenty of content.

The issue isn't that these departments get MORE content from chemistry. It's that chemistry itself is NOT a fleshed out role with plenty of content, it's a fucking wall between other departments and content that's already been created for them... but given to someone who doesn't care about it.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:27 am #475371

koimeiji wrote:I like the theme of the idea, I do not like the execution of the idea. I absolutely adore playing botanist and just growing shit that people need, passing out joints, doing general hydro things. I absolutely despise, well, everything about chemistry. Merging them into a single job would, at least for me, kill off any incentive for me to want to play this job.

Nothing about the job of botanist would change significantly though, you can still do it.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby koimeiji » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:38 am #475373

oranges wrote:Nothing about the job of botanist would change significantly though, you can still do it.


True, but that won't always be the case with a merged single job.
If I am the only "botachemist" that round, I can't just not do chemistry. I'd be forced to, to supply the jobs that need things from chemistry their things (unless i want people breaking in to get their own shit...which, who does?)

Likewise, what about the opposite side? Someone who hates playing hydro but loves chemistry? While they don't have to supply the chef with anything, they'd still be forced to do hydro to get the things they want.

Of course there's also the "too many chefs in the kitchen" aspect that someone mentioned above, where having four botanists sharing a space, competing with seeds and trays...well, I can't see too many people enjoying that. You could remedy that with a total rework of the "botachemist" room I guess.


Forcing a connection between hydro and chemistry I can agree with; put them right next to each other, shared chem dispenser, windoors and table, ala the kitchen. Have chemistry start with a few trays to grow some basic shit, while requiring botanists to grow more exotic things as they need them. I think this is leagues better than just making them a single job forced to do both things, which some players may not enjoy.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby nullbear » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:52 am #475377

Making chemistry a neutral department would also fix the issue between "medbay needs X and botanist doesnt want to or know how" and "too many chefs" because if a botanist doesnt want to or know how to do chemistry... They dont have to because its not their department.

If doctor needs to make a med, knows how to, and doesnt have a botanist or chemist to do it for them, they can do it without breaking in.
Most people who need things from chemistry, Need ONE thing. They get it. Then they leave. You wouldnt end up with people fighting over the role because most people wont be using chemistry for much longer than a minute or two at a time.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:05 am #475380

At first I agreed, but this got me thinking


mickyy5 wrote:I disagree strongly, I actually think it should be the direct opposite of what you propose.
Chemistry and botany are already too close, I think they should move further apart, this being done by reducing the current chemicals in botany plants and replacing it with their own unique chemicals which do unique effects, perhaps some heal plants which also turn you a random colour, or weird chemicals which make you speak in a silly voice.

This would kill botany as a job to grow plants and just make it a sweaty job for power gamers. Gone would be chilling with some bees and growing the chef cool veg, because you would be bitched at and broken into for not powergaming max tier chems. If you wanna rework chemistry, then rework chemistry, you don't have to kill another department to do it.



There are two types of botany and chemistry players, the chilled out slow-paced stock the fridge man

But there's also the tider antagonistic potential makes things go boom boom man


How do we make this change not strongly cater to either side too hard? So we don't end up with essentially xenobio 2.0 or curator 1.5

I'm still for it, I would just hope that it'd get test merged first to see how the player base meshes with it.

All in All, I hope this feature is its own thing and doesn't insanely draw too heavy from interdepartmental co-operation to keep things afloat. Or I fear it'll be the job to take when you want to do the jobs of all the departments/other departments, without actually putting in the effort and instead of rushing towards the loot pinata side of things.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby angelstarri » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:14 am #475385

Botanist mains are just angry they have to do a proper job now instead of growing weed and doing autism plant gene splicing
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:18 am #475387

angelstarri wrote:Botanist mains are just angry they have to do a proper job now instead of growing weed and doing autism plant gene splicing


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see?

no ideas have been furthered or floated around

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Farquaar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:21 am #475389

Concerning the conversation around whether hydroponics should be next to the kitchen or next to chemistry:

The chef needs to be next to hydroponics. No doubt about it. It's already quite difficult to make most of the countless dishes in the game, most of which depend on components from hydroponics and/or the biogenerator. This problem is amplified by the fact that many botanists don't even supply crops the chef, forcing the chef to go into hydroponics to grow his own. We had this before in OmegaStation, and it completely snuffed out any hope for interesting and creative chef play.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Hatterhat » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:32 am #475393

Putting a hard limiter on the chemical dispenser to force interplay between chemistry and botany doesn't really seem like the best of ideas. Nerfing chem regen rates on the dispensers to encourage, but not force cooperation? Sure.

But putting a hard limit on the amount of reagents that the dispensers have isn't something that would play out very well, in my opinion.

What would the split between chemical-containing plants and food plants look like? Would they be one and the same? How would the proposed change affect growing plants for, say, the chef or the bartender or some vegetarian who only likes apples or something?
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:03 am #475397

It's not interplay, it's the same job

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:05 am #475398

Shadowflame909 wrote:There are two types of botany and chemistry players, the chilled out slow-paced stock the fridge man

But there's also the tider antagonistic potential makes things go boom boom man


How do we make this change not strongly cater to either side too hard? So we don't end up with essentially xenobio 2.0 or curator 1.5

I'm still for it, I would just hope that it'd get test merged first to see how the player base meshes with it.

All in All, I hope this feature is its own thing and doesn't insanely draw too heavy from interdepartmental co-operation to keep things afloat. Or I fear it'll be the job to take when you want to do the jobs of all the departments/other departments, without actually putting in the effort and instead of rushing towards the loot pinata side of things.

It's not changing the departments or the number of jobs so why would any one side be catered to more? And what do you mean by drawing too heavy from interdepartment cooperation, it's the same job?

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:06 am #475399

koimeiji wrote:
oranges wrote:Nothing about the job of botanist would change significantly though, you can still do it.


True, but that won't always be the case with a merged single job.
If I am the only "botachemist" that round, I can't just not do chemistry. I'd be forced to, to supply the jobs that need things from chemistry their things (unless i want people breaking in to get their own shit...which, who does?)

Likewise, what about the opposite side? Someone who hates playing hydro but loves chemistry? While they don't have to supply the chef with anything, they'd still be forced to do hydro to get the things they want.

Of course there's also the "too many chefs in the kitchen" aspect that someone mentioned above, where having four botanists sharing a space, competing with seeds and trays...well, I can't see too many people enjoying that. You could remedy that with a total rework of the "botachemist" room I guess.


Forcing a connection between hydro and chemistry I can agree with; put them right next to each other, shared chem dispenser, windoors and table, ala the kitchen. Have chemistry start with a few trays to grow some basic shit, while requiring botanists to grow more exotic things as they need them. I think this is leagues better than just making them a single job forced to do both things, which some players may not enjoy.


I'd rather work with a better job that combines two poor ones than cater to the people who only care about one thing tbh and ask chemists about mutagen to see how wel "forcing" two jobs to work together is going, or the chef about how much food he's getting from botany.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Kel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:06 am #475400

botany is a job that has no actual unique identity of its own and thus is a shitty grief job, i support botany's full removal and having chemists oversee plant production. maybe in a hydroponics garden in a back room that the chef also has access to?
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:24 am #475403

oranges wrote:It's not changing the departments or the number of jobs so why would any one side be catered to more? And what do you mean by drawing too heavy from interdepartment cooperation, it's the same job?


I was referencing your phase 2 idea of it integrating Mining into it as well for the last question, I just saw a future where people chose this job, because it was the free loot pinata job "I get to hunt tendrils on lavaland, make thermite and meth, and get my free botany death nettle e-sword lite. win win win!1!1!1!"

But good point at my first question.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby zxaber » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:53 am #475411

If Chemistry is going to be flip-flopped all around, can robotics get a starting beaker of like 30 mannitol? It's still not uncommon for the other roboticist to ignore everything I say and beat someone to death until their head flies off, and then wonder why the brain doesn't work in the MMI, and I often am just handed a head and told to "borg this".
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:59 am #475422

grind a glowstick with some candy and add water for mannitol


anyway i m not sure why make it a "combined job", just remove the chemist role, turn chemistry into a "processing chemical zone" and have botany have a disposal bin to there where they can trow their "medical plants" and have doctors grind and mix whatever plant gives u meth

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Hatterhat » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:01 am #475436

oranges wrote:It's not interplay, it's the same job


The ID and the code will say it's the same job, but for the players, it'll still feel like two jobs being tied together under one single banner. Botany and chemistry both interact with reagents and whatnot, sure, but the applications differ between the two.

For botany, mass-production of healing or crippling plants is feasible, and the supply can easily be left out to the people when the product is refined, i.e. botanists making dirt piles with modified Ambrosia Gaia and whatnot outside of Medbay and in other high-traffic areas.

For chemistry, precision and more variation is their niche. Where botany has some good healing potential, chemistry has a place in Medbay as the supplier of more esoteric reagents. If you wanted to make some crazy chem in Botany that wasn't already prevalent in a mutated plant, you'd have to toy around with the base reagents there and try to grow what you want and still run the risk of having too many or too few reagents to make the final mix. But with Chemistry, precision is there - and precision is key in medicine.

The merger is an interesting idea, and playing it out - PRing, playtesting, polling the players about it - would be an interesting experiment - but I still stand by my stance that hard-limiting the chem dispenser would only hurt the concept.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby SaveVatznick » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:40 am #475439

Make all botany equipment public access and add a private botany room that a single roundstart Plantmaster has access to.
Any chemist, chef, or greyshit who wants to smoke a doobie can come along and do so, and a single botanist can, in the public eye, have their little shop of horrors.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Jalleo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:33 am #475459

This is a good idea and has been floated about every so often for a very long time.

There are three issues with it.

One: Botany hydro trays need a rewrite their code is awful.

Two: They need a order system to let people know what is needed (Along with a distribution like the ORM but for food and chems)

Three: As it has been said peoples have thoughts about how things work will need changing. This is the easiest step. I remember people hating goof chem. They mostly like it now.

Botany doesn't need to be next to the kitchen all the time if they can throw their food into a distribution system. Chemistry doesnt need to be inside medical if they have a distribution system. Merging the two and doing this is easy. The hard part is making the code better to add more features.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Lumbermancer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:52 am #475465

Merging anything is fucking gay and a slippery slope. Merge robotics with science. Merge kitchen with bar. Merge mining and cargo and janitor. Merge engineering and atmos. Some of these suggestions floated around already. Just no, homogenization kills identity and flavor.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:59 am #475467

Biggest hurdle I see is space. Plants require an entire tile to grow and botany is crowded enough with 2 people.

If you add 5 people into the current mapped areas its going to be hell, and the increased demand from botany is going to require more space. Also plant processing is going to be a bigger job than it used to be, and that requires space as well.

I can see the mapping issue being easy to solve on deltastation but Meta and Box shove botany into compact areas. Combining botany and chemistry turns it from a job into its own mini-department, and it is going to need the space for it.

I know mapping is on the list of things to handle but I cannot stress enough how space intensive botany is.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:03 am #475468

Lumbermancer wrote:Merging anything is fucking gay and a slippery slope. Merge robotics with science. Merge kitchen with bar. Merge mining and cargo and janitor. Merge engineering and atmos. Some of these suggestions floated around already. Just no, homogenization kills identity and flavor.


Why the fuck do people use "slippery slope" like it isnt a literal textbook logical fallacy. Come up with an actual argument as to why this is a bad idea besides "oh no it might mean unrelated things might happen"

Also this isnt homogenization of botany or chemistry, they already need to work together to get the best chems, this just makes working together no longer impossible due to space and factions issues and allows chem to be more properly balanced.

It also lets more chemicals be added and other forms of depth to be added to a job that has been reduced to macrospamming for powerful effects. It is overall a good change that will lead to more interesting chemistry stuff being added.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:15 am #475471

Distribution: Readd telescience but with predetermined destinations (beacons) and you can only send, not receive, and only if the "target" accepts the package. Or make disposals more robust to have a worse result but take literally 1000 times more effort to actually do, both for the programmer and the player. If we do that, we can stick departments anywhere instead of mandating that botany MUST be physically next to the kitchen. Personally I would stick this Chemistry into Cargo and then rename Cargo to Supply. That should help with the space concerns, most maps have more space adjacent to Cargo (which is always on the edge of the station) instead of the Bar (which is generally in the middle).

As to the idea itself, making how you acquire chemicals interesting is def a good idea. As to concerns about different people wanting to do different things, If you truly just want to grow whatever, we can always add an ORM-like machine you can mindlessly dump all your plants into and let someone else sort out actually processing them. And if you just want to process shit, we can also stick a small amount of random shit in maint, the spawn room for the job, and other departments for you to "acquire". And if you just want to mix shit, I mean some chemicals are trivial to acquire no matter what you do, right?

If people really, really want to, we could always keep Chemist and Botanist separate jobs but in the same department similar to Roboticist and Scientist or CT and QM, although personally I dislike doing stuff like that.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Lumbermancer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:19 am #475473

Dr_bee wrote:Why the fuck do people use "slippery slope" like it isnt a literal textbook logical fallacy.


Oh yeah, just like I said adding lizards as a round-start race is a slippery slope, and look where are we now? But it's ok, you're too young to remember that.

Dr_bee wrote:they already need to work together to get the best chems, this just makes working together no longer impossible


Yeah, it's just killing inter-departmental interaction. Don't we have a thread about cargo irrelevance already?
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:33 am #475474

Lumbermancer wrote:just like I said adding lizards as a round-start race is a slippery slope


yeah uh, im pretty sure i said that first

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:38 am #475475

Lumbermancer wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Why the fuck do people use "slippery slope" like it isnt a literal textbook logical fallacy.


Oh yeah, just like I said adding lizards as a round-start race is a slippery slope, and look where are we now? But it's ok, you're too young to remember that.


Questioning the age of someone else is not an argument, it is also a textbook logical fallacy. A person's age doesnt mean what they say is any less right or wrong.

Also I have been playing since 2008, I remember when lizards were an admeme role restricted to janitor.

And you also failed to understand my original argument. Chemistry is a dead end balance and development wise. It is not possible to add more powerful effects to chemistry because there is no way to gate it behind anything besides botany. Botany at the moment has no other roles than making wheat and meme plants. This is a good change and you are too stubborn to even consider why it is being considered.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:41 am #475476

anything oranges proposes is a good change and will be happening

if oranges said make all players catpeople round start, it would happen

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Lumbermancer » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:42 am #475477

Dr_bee wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Why the fuck do people use "slippery slope" like it isnt a literal textbook logical fallacy.


Oh yeah, just like I said adding lizards as a round-start race is a slippery slope, and look where are we now? But it's ok, you're too young to remember that.


Questioning the age of someone else is not an argument, it is also a textbook logical fallacy. A person's age doesnt mean what they say is any less right or wrong.

Also I have been playing since 2008, I remember when lizards were an admeme role restricted to janitor.

And you also failed to understand my original argument. Chemistry is a dead end balance and development wise. It is not possible to add more powerful effects to chemistry because there is no way to gate it behind anything besides botany. Botany at the moment has no other roles than making wheat and meme plants. This is a good change and you are too stubborn to even consider why it is being considered.


It was a joke, don't take it personally.

Also I generally know what you meant. It's just it seems to me like a facilitation of power-creep.

Dr_bee wrote:botany at the moment has no other roles than making wheat and meme plants.


See, when I play cook, I must often beg botany to make food plants. And getting other than wheat? Maybe if you're lucky. This is PRECISELY because of memes the botany evolved into, which you want to expand. So fuck kitchen. And so, using the power of my immense brain and never being wrong, I can predict next natural step will be adding upgraded plant tray for cook, so he can grow his own plants. Gee how fun, everyone just does their own thing.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:09 pm #475480

The idea of having only a few chems and nothing else seems like you will make diseases of any sort into a CALL-THE-SHUTTLE-NOW-WE'RE-DEAD situation. I imagine that Botany will only make what supports them and any other chemicals will never be seen.

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:29 pm #475482

That's a problem with virology cures and should be handled separately.
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Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:33 pm #475483

well have botany and a public garden so if there is no botany you can still fertilize plants with poo and grow meth

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Re: Proposed change - Merge chemistry and botany

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:46 pm #475524

Lumbermancer wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Why the fuck do people use "slippery slope" like it isnt a literal textbook logical fallacy.


Oh yeah, just like I said adding lizards as a round-start race is a slippery slope, and look where are we now? But it's ok, you're too young to remember that.

Dr_bee wrote:they already need to work together to get the best chems, this just makes working together no longer impossible


Yeah, it's just killing inter-departmental interaction. Don't we have a thread about cargo irrelevance already?

inter departmental interaction should be about working together to acheive advanced cool stuff, as it is right now botany relies on chemistry to do anything cool and chemistry doesn't rely on botany at all.

Chef has the same issue, he relies on botany immensely (except he can go to cargo to get food if he's lucky) and there's basically nothing botany requires from them.

There isn't anything positive that will come out of these kinds of one way interactions.

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