[POLL] Add slowdown for dragging bodies

[MisterPerson]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Just remove rest, then. Simple solution to a simple problem.

There was never a problem in the first place.

It was just mentioned that it would be a problem if this was implemented. I don't even support it, I was just laying out an obvious and simple solution that people can chew over. The way I see it, there's 3 choices.

Dragging continues to cause no slowdown.
Dragging people who are conscious and standing doesn't cause a slowdown and resting is removed/changed to make security's life easier.
Dragging people only causes a slowdown if they're dead. Non-mob dragging may or may not be slower, that's a different issue.

Pick your poison. I would be in favor of this if it wouldn't literally make security (more of) a nightmare with dragging people back to the brig, people resisting arrest, etc.

[paprika]

what if being dragged hurt you so resting while cuffed in protest so the officer drags you slower grinds your face against the tiles

the most heroic suicide!

[Saegrimr]

Pick your poison. I would be in favor of this if it wouldn't literally make security (more of) a nightmare with dragging people back to the brig, people resisting arrest, etc.

You are actually suggesting to get rid of an RP verb in favor of not just harmbatonning retards who lay down.

[cedarbridge]

Pick your poison. I would be in favor of this if it wouldn't literally make security (more of) a nightmare with dragging people back to the brig, people resisting arrest, etc.

You are actually suggesting to get rid of an RP verb in favor of not just harmbatonning retards who lay down.

As alternatives to this were already suggested, I don't see this as a real issue.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Alternatively, remove the ability to rest while cuffed. You avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water and close a retarded loophole.

There you go, makes sense, too.

what if being dragged hurt you so resting while cuffed in protest so the officer drags you slower grinds your face against the tiles

the most heroic suicide!

This is less practical, but more funny version. Could cause issues with asimov AIs, but it's technically self-harm unless prisoner is stunned.

[dezzmont]

Making it so dragging people harms them removes a shit ton of utility from dragging them. Rescue drags would cease to be possible for example.

People keep on just saying words instead of actually trying to design anything. This is basically the thread:

"Dragging should be slower because grab fu is bad."
"No realism"
"It isn't about realisim"
"Ok well here are a shit ton of problems with dragging"
"I refuse to recognize half these problems (Seriously people, traitors, dragging, vital mechanic for them, what do you seriously think they will do? We are 5 pages in and no one has answered that question) and the other half I will either downplay or cause more problems trying to fix."
"Realism is baaaad."
"Lets break everything for reasons I will not elaborate on!"
"X is stupid which is why I want to force through this very specific idea to nerf dragging despite other more feasable alternatives to drag racing being recommended."

In sumary problems found with this change and how they were adressed:
Makes people die way more often: Sorta recognized, but not really, no solution given.
Increased rate of cloning and devaluing of medics: Not adressed.
Complete removal of rescuing people from combat via drag: Not recognized.
The reduction in viable tactics of traitors to non-interactive methods such as the microbomb: Not adressed to an embarassing extent because this is the core reason behind the change.
Security having slower arrests: Make it so walking people are not slowing you down, which is confusing because logically someone standing would be harder to pull than someone you are dragging.
What about rest: The idea of removing something because a proposed change breaks it, which is dumb because this isn't a very vital change, or making it so being dragged while down hurts you, which causes problems for medics, anyone trying to save anyone else, space rescues, security arrests because you need to wait a solid 8 seconds after getting the cuffs on to start moving, and handling uncuffed prisoners because again that is a thing.
Slowing down Cargo: Recognized and brushed off with recommendation of using loader mechs and mules, which is god damned stupid because mules don't actually work that way and are profoundly unhelpful when working the warehouse where all the dragging actually happens, and you shouldn't say that ripleys being able to speed the warehouse up invalidates the very real problems cargo has without it.
Space rescues: Recognized, no real response.
Massive mining slow down: Recognized but assumed the problem was the miners dragging stuff to science. It is like you have never played mining. The system is set up assuming that the miners will be smart and drag supplies around and ore boxes all day on the asteroid.
Atmoshperics and science canister dragging: recognized, brushed off, with a statement that people don't bother anyway, which is classy because you are making it more likely they won't bother.


This proposed change messes up so much stuff, and no one has even been really to articulate the benefits of the end result. Oh, they can articulate the result, the removal of dragging as a viable option from the combat system, but no one seems to be willing to think through what that means for the game. It has a lot of really nasty effects:

Co-operation outside of adding more fire to the mix becomes much harder as you can't drag someone safely out of range if they get downed.
Traitors have far less leway in target selection meaning either rounds will be much slower as they hope by luck their target will become compeltely isolated rather than mostly isolated, or they will use really shitty non-interactive tactics that involve less counter play or thought than stunning a room and dragging the guy you want.
Security with the way you want to impliment this change will still be hamstrung and getting caught will matter a lot less as long as anyone else is still about.
Cult basically becomes impossible.

Can anyone here seriously articulate what effects of dragging in combat are bad? No one should be taking the statement that drag fu is bad for the game seriously just because people are irked they got kidnapped and killed and made a snappy name for it.

Come up with actual arguments for why it should be removed before even thinking about changing something as fundemental as dragging, and the arguments should be more compelling than "It is non-interactive" because, yeah, being stunned generally results in your inability to act, but there are a lot of aspects to dragging that make it more interactive than many other tactics in SS13. Drag-fu isn't non-interactive in the same way old para-pen was because it is part of a larger system that you interact with before you actually are incapacitated and invites other players to get involved in the situation much more. You are not acting because you are not supposed to. The exchange happened before you were being dragged, you lost, now you are at the mercy of others, but dragging gets a lot of people involved to grant you mercy.

[bandit]

I'm not reading through 5 pages of sperging to see if this was brought up, but adding slowdown for dragging bodies will force murders to have an exit strategy, whether hiding, destroying (when dismemberment's in), etc. the body, when killing people besides "leldragspacegg." It will also probably make the detective more useful, as some antags won't bother and detectives might actually find corpses in lockers or whatever. I consider this a good thing.

[TZK13]

Just remove rest, then. Simple solution to a simple problem.

Even if you "don't even support it" that's still an obviously incredibly stupid thing for somebody representing coderbus to say in a thread where people are already concerned about this getting in with so much negative feedback.

[Plasma_Panda]

shit coders are really fucking hellbent on turning the server into a "balanced" video game completely instead of any kind of roleplaying space station simulation

there is no problem to be corrected here. if anything, dragging someone in or near crit OR dead should tear open their wounds just so we see more usage of bodybags and stretchers and stop thinking of blood trails that start at arrivals and end at escape as a common sight.

[soulgamer]

Oh and to the >Dragging people at speed should tear them up


You might have an argument if the station wasn't covered in tiles that are so smooth they become impossible to walk on if they are wet. Think about it. We have fucking teflon floors.

[cedarbridge]

shit coders are really fucking hellbent on turning the server into a "balanced" video game completely instead of any kind of roleplaying space station simulation

there is no problem to be corrected here. if anything, dragging someone in or near crit OR dead should tear open their wounds just so we see more usage of bodybags and stretchers and stop thinking of blood trails that start at arrivals and end at escape as a common sight.

I'm not sure there's a sentence in that last part, but yes, without fail, there will be at least one blood trail starting at arrivals and ending at escape.

Dezz, I'm not sure exactly where you're getting this fixation on "well antags just won't ever drag bodies again" thing. Its like you'd have us believe that because they move slower and can't just turbo off with the body that they're going to have to resort to just minibombing everyone they kill (impractical and no less round-permanent than chucking them out an airlock.) Slowing drag to a reasonable rate (slower than normal runspeed) would both function to make it practical to catch somebody dragging a body around (which should make sense in even the most basic sense) and cuts down on the hyperzine fueled wackyraces that are drag-fu combat.

Devaluing of medics: Was addressed back on page 1. As a medic player, I don't want you bringing people to medbay for treatment when I can (and do) treat people where they fall. I've spent more rounds chasing dying people being dragged away down a hallway than I've had people summon me to wounded people. That's a problem. Shit, with our current medical system of "anyone can do it but most people still can't figure it out" these same people dragracing off with wounded people are entirely likely to still bypass the doctors who (for whatever reason) camp out in medbay just to dump literally anyone into cryo (or worse, leave them sitting at the medbay doors to die.) I've seen people who didn't even bother to check if the person they were dragging off was actually dead or alive and just rushed them straight off to cloning while they gasped and a medic was chasing behind them. I shouldn't need to elaborate why that's bad gameplay and frustrating to boot.

Mining: I play mining a ton also and I would suffer not at all if this were added. Its almost like mining is attached to cargo, which is attached to an underused and very robust mailing system. Why drag a locker (which WILL be pushed out of your hands by at least 5 people before you get to science) full of materials when I could just as well turn 180 degrees from the smelter, wrap that locker and mail that shit to science? Also, seriously, nobody uses ore boxes anyway. They're big clunky vision obscuring objects that just get in the way. You can carry all the ores you could possibly want from a given trip in two satchels and you're done. There are no "supplies" to drag around short of a mining bot and even those are tracked and mostly autonomous (medibots are also wheeled so that's another non-issue.

Combat dragging: This complaint would only make sense in a situation where dragging was actually removed. It SHOULD be difficult to move people large distances while in a firefight. It makes wounding people a viable option over completely killing them on the spot. It also takes some of the annoyance out of shooting somebody up only to see them disappear around a corner as soon as you put them down because some random guy saw them fall over and drag raced them off and down another hallway. I already discussed this in some detail previously. If we really wanted to dickwave about miltac here, a dead person is one casualty. A wounded person is 3-4 (the person wounded, the 1-2 people dragging them away and the 3rd/4th treating their wounds.

Faster while standing, slower while "resting" - Seems only confusing to you. A bound and controlled person is easier to move while they are standing than when they are laying down. That's just physics. Also, the idea that "they're resisting!" while cuffed and bound (the lack of specific detail, visually, of everything occurring on a sprite or to a sprite not withstanding is not a reason to assume the worst in any case and if it did I'll ask for the full animation of all machine assembly jobs) is non-sensical to me and assumes that the means by which the officers are binding the prisoner are somehow liberal enough to afford them a means to "pull away" while making it impossible to push past that same person who is bound.

Cargo: Anyone who has spent 5 minutes in cargo knows you ~push~ crates, you don't drag them.

Oh and to the >Dragging people at speed should tear them up


You might have an argument if the station wasn't covered in tiles that are so smooth they become impossible to walk on if they are wet. Think about it. We have fucking teflon floors.

I get the impression he meant "tear you up vitally" which makes sense because if you're dragging around a person who is wounded, they're going to suffer more or greater injuries than somebody left in place. There's a reason you're not supposed to move injured people unless you're a properly trained doctor/emt in RL cases. Moving somebody improperly will fuck them up.

[Balut]

Just remove rest, then. Simple solution to a simple problem.

Hhhahahahahahaha this is one of those cases where you can't hear sarcasm over the internet right. I mean like for real you even make a bait joke in the next post.

It was good. I laughed.

[Cipher3]

what if being dragged hurt you so resting while cuffed in protest so the officer drags you slower grinds your face against the tiles

the most heroic suicide!

inb4 pushing people over and dragging them as the new tabling.

[Saegrimr]

inb4 pushing people over and dragging them as the new tabling.

Unrelated, somewhat, but dragging people through glass only hurts if they don't have shoes on. Would be nice to see it always do damage if they're on the ground in some way.

[lumipharon]

Oh and to the >Dragging people at speed should tear them up


You might have an argument if the station wasn't covered in tiles that are so smooth they become impossible to walk on if they are wet. Think about it. We have fucking teflon floors.

Try run on a wet polished floor, or a wet metal floor. You will slip.

[soulgamer]

Oh and to the >Dragging people at speed should tear them up


You might have an argument if the station wasn't covered in tiles that are so smooth they become impossible to walk on if they are wet. Think about it. We have fucking teflon floors.

Try run on a wet polished floor, or a wet metal floor. You will slip.

I wasnt complaining I was saying for it to be that slick than you could drag someone across it at speed without harming them.

[Rhisereld]

I think a small slowdown would be a good idea. It's insane how you can just grab a person in crit and yakety sax around 5ever. When was the last time you won a race with a fully grown man over your shoulder?

[iyaerP]

I really really dislike this idea. I don't think I have ever seen it be an ingame issue where sec needs to chase somebody dragging a body and can't just shoot them before they escape, and the ability to do something like a be a MD on hyperzine and drag someone in crit to medbay super fast to save their life is super useful.

[paprika]

I really really dislike this idea. I don't think I have ever seen it be an ingame issue where sec needs to chase somebody dragging a body and can't just shoot them before they escape, and the ability to do something like a be a MD on hyperzine and drag someone in crit to medbay super fast to save their life is super useful.

MAYBE MDS WILL USE THEIR TOOLS TO HEAL ON-SITE INSTEAD OF DRAGGING EVERYONE TO THE INSTAHEAL SLEEPERS


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[cedarbridge]

I really really dislike this idea. I don't think I have ever seen it be an ingame issue where sec needs to chase somebody dragging a body and can't just shoot them before they escape, and the ability to do something like a be a MD on hyperzine and drag someone in crit to medbay super fast to save their life is super useful.

>not knowing how to pull somebody out of crit without taking the person to medbay
No wonder people complain about doctors on this server.

[iyaerP]

Or maybe I don't have the supplies or some shit. Or maybe I am a miner using stim pens. Regardless, the point remains valid.

[cedarbridge]

Or maybe I don't have the supplies or some shit. Or maybe I am a miner using stim pens. Regardless, the point remains valid.

Miners die all the time for not being prepared with medical supplies. Its a dangerous world.

[Wyzack]

After thinking on this some, i feel like a small slowdown would not be that awful, even if it is tiny. It would prevent tators from kidnapping people right in front of a crowd but would not make stashing bodies that inconvenient.

[dezzmont]

I really really dislike this idea. I don't think I have ever seen it be an ingame issue where sec needs to chase somebody dragging a body and can't just shoot them before they escape, and the ability to do something like a be a MD on hyperzine and drag someone in crit to medbay super fast to save their life is super useful.

MAYBE MDS WILL USE THEIR TOOLS TO HEAL ON-SITE INSTEAD OF DRAGGING EVERYONE TO THE INSTAHEAL SLEEPERS


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

On site medical tools are pretty worthless, which is why they are dispersed through the station. They are literally equiped mostly with stuff out of a first aid box in real life. If you want medics to heal on site you need to make it worth their time compared to using the cloner, because in metas when stationary medical tools in medbay are weak they don't even bother.

[Saegrimr]

On site medical tools are pretty worthless, which is why they are dispersed through the station. They are literally equiped mostly with stuff out of a first aid box in real life. If you want medics to heal on site you need to make it worth their time compared to using the cloner, because in metas when stationary medical tools in medbay are weak they don't even bother.

Are you kidding me?

1: Dude is gasping on the ground
2: Pop dexalin pill in his mouth or CPR him a couple times
3a: Scan him
3b: Shove tricord into his system, skip step 4.
4: Apply bruise pack/ointment to the body part with the most affected damage
5: HOLY SHIT YOU'RE ALIVE.

YOU JUST SAVED LIKE 10-20 MINUTES ON THE CLONER.

[dezzmont]

Cloner doesn't take that long. The fact dexalin is standard really helped out medics but they still are not really any better than anyone using their department's medical equipment still.

Think about it for a second, the nature of this change. EIther you are making it so that you only can reasonably heal in the field, which makes sleepers bad and makes cryo even more worthles than it already kinda is for what it originally was made for, or people are going to not heal in the field because the gain isn't that noticable for complicated damage mixes. So a slight slowdown, one that most people are recommending, won't help.

[Saegrimr]

Cloner takes for fucking ever if you're dragging people STILL GASPING to the cloner and making a conga line of 15 people all waiting to get cloned ghosting to do something else.

[dezzmont]

The cloner takes about 2 minutes. I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

[Saegrimr]

Just admit that there are good players and bad ones, and you are a terrible medic.

[dezzmont]

I generally do field healing myself even when someone was hit by different damage in different places, even though cloning takes less effort and time to just slap them in the sleeper.

I am commenting on player behavior, not my own. Before the sleepers were buffed and dexalin was made default people generally didn't try to heal people, that is just history.

Also stop being an ass, for real. You don't even know how long cloning takes and are calling me a bad medic?

[Saegrimr]

The cloner's time is irrelevant when the people are STILL ALIVE and can be brought back up in less than 20 seconds on the spot with all their equipment.

Once they actually fucking die then feel free to drag their ass back to genetics, since defibs are probably WAAAAAY too much work if you can't handle a bruise pack.

[Balut]

[youtube]xoTzLLZMrKc[/youtube]

[cedarbridge]

I generally do field healing myself even when someone was hit by different damage in different places, even though cloning takes less effort and time to just slap them in the sleeper.

I am commenting on player behavior, not my own. Before the sleepers were buffed and dexalin was made default people generally didn't try to heal people, that is just history.

Also stop being an ass, for real. You don't even know how long cloning takes and are calling me a bad medic?

He's right though. You're only counting time in the cloner. You're not counting time in the queue waiting to be cloned (which is exacerbated by not performing proper medical patching on the spot), sitting in cryo so as not to spend the rest of the shift retarded/blind/a gibbering mess and then more time spent picking up all the shit off your other body and making your way back across the station to whatever your job was. Cloning is an enormous pain in the ass which is why good medics started carrying defibs and wearing medical belts. It is MUCH less hassle for both parties to treat the injured where they fall instead of darting them straight to cryo/a sleeper.

[soulgamer]

On site medical tools are pretty worthless, which is why they are dispersed through the station. They are literally equiped mostly with stuff out of a first aid box in real life. If you want medics to heal on site you need to make it worth their time compared to using the cloner, because in metas when stationary medical tools in medbay are weak they don't even bother.

Do you even play medic? I carry one of each type of medkit with me and I can have someone from crit to full in about a minute (unless I am having to fight players/hazards).

[dezzmont]

I generally do field healing myself even when someone was hit by different damage in different places, even though cloning takes less effort and time to just slap them in the sleeper.

I am commenting on player behavior, not my own. Before the sleepers were buffed and dexalin was made default people generally didn't try to heal people, that is just history.

Also stop being an ass, for real. You don't even know how long cloning takes and are calling me a bad medic?

He's right though. You're only counting time in the cloner. You're not counting time in the queue waiting to be cloned (which is exacerbated by not performing proper medical patching on the spot), sitting in cryo so as not to spend the rest of the shift retarded/blind/a gibbering mess and then more time spent picking up all the shit off your other body and making your way back across the station to whatever your job was. Cloning is an enormous pain in the ass which is why good medics started carrying defibs and wearing medical belts. It is MUCH less hassle for both parties to treat the injured where they fall instead of darting them straight to cryo/a sleeper.

You are thinking about time for the medic, not for the people who are dead.

On site medical tools are pretty worthless, which is why they are dispersed through the station. They are literally equiped mostly with stuff out of a first aid box in real life. If you want medics to heal on site you need to make it worth their time compared to using the cloner, because in metas when stationary medical tools in medbay are weak they don't even bother.

Do you even play medic? I carry one of each type of medkit with me and I can have someone from crit to full in about a minute (unless I am having to fight players/hazards).

I play medic. Honestly a minute sounds pretty slow. The real issue is that what matters is the medic's perspective. Medics have been for a long time really shitty about that and the inadiquacy of their old toolkit to actually save or stabilize people in crit tied into that.

Granted, now that people have broken the habbit of relying on cloner, where you would often have medics just piling bodies up and not even bothering to heal them, they may be willing to use those tools despite them being less efficient from their own perspective, or they may fall back into bad habbits. Dexalin may actually be the magic bullet though that finally will get rid of the school nurse effect and actually make medics bother with using their first aid kits even when sleepers are not viable. The issue is that even way back when knowing how CPR worked allowed you to field revive people about as fast as you can with the dexalin, it just took a different sort of know how.

I also don't think that trying to make medics field revive with this change is the best way to go about it. If that is the primary concern and people are currently mostly ignoring field revives, despite how much easier they are now, I doubt a slowdown will really affect that behavior unless you make the sleeper downright worthless, which was my main point. The ideal best medic already doesn't really bother with these drags, and the worst medics are going to drag anyway. If you want field revives to be a bigger thing then giving the medic an upgraded first aid kit compared to the kit in security or the effective kit in the CE's office may suit that need better. Optimally it wouldn't be more chemist chemials, but something new that will specifically encourage people to use them to help people in crit.

[cedarbridge]

I generally do field healing myself even when someone was hit by different damage in different places, even though cloning takes less effort and time to just slap them in the sleeper.

I am commenting on player behavior, not my own. Before the sleepers were buffed and dexalin was made default people generally didn't try to heal people, that is just history.

Also stop being an ass, for real. You don't even know how long cloning takes and are calling me a bad medic?

He's right though. You're only counting time in the cloner. You're not counting time in the queue waiting to be cloned (which is exacerbated by not performing proper medical patching on the spot), sitting in cryo so as not to spend the rest of the shift retarded/blind/a gibbering mess and then more time spent picking up all the shit off your other body and making your way back across the station to whatever your job was. Cloning is an enormous pain in the ass which is why good medics started carrying defibs and wearing medical belts. It is MUCH less hassle for both parties to treat the injured where they fall instead of darting them straight to cryo/a sleeper.

You are thinking about time for the medic, not for the people who are dead.

No I'm not. The medic dumps the guy off at cloning/cyro and calls it a day. Time spent: 10 seconds. The guy dead is the one who has to sit in a queue of bodies to maybe be scanned and then maybe actually cloned, spend the 2 minutes in the cloner and (depending on setup) 3-4+ minutes in cyro. Most of the waiting time is the dead guy who gets to stare at an immersive deadscreen. There's no argument here for why discouraging on-site medical and revival isn't more convenient for both parties than dragging them off to sit in a cloning queue or cyro.

[dezzmont]

No I'm not. The medic dumps the guy off at cloning/cyro and calls it a day. Time spent: 10 seconds.

Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

Good medics, of course, don't do this because they care about the patient's time as much as their own, and understand that popping a dex makes reviving people really easy. But if this change is trying to get crappy medics to do more on site revivals it will fail. Now that dexalin is one of the most common items on the station taking someone out of crit basically just requires understanding crit mechanics, popping dex, and bruise packing a guy. People who are not already doing that and are instead dragging to sleepers are not going to be disuaded by a minor slowdown intended to keep dragging bodies reasonably zippy.

If you want to get people reviving on site more one thing you could do is make the utility of dexalin in the process more apparent, or by a not quite upgrade to the medkit by making a doctor's version that looks like it makes it easier but actually doesn't, and creates an illusionary reduction in the amount of work it takes.

[Saegrimr]

This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

So basically we're talking about shit players who don't do their job. This could be said of engineering, science, cargo, chef, botany, security...

We shouldn't be catering to lazy fucks who don't want to do their job.

[dezzmont]

This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

So basically we're talking about shit players who don't do their job. This could be said of engineering, science, cargo, chef, botany, security...

We shouldn't be catering to lazy fucks who don't want to do their job.

You missed the point.

If this change is not about changing the behavior of shit players and is instead catered towards people who already are doing on site revivals then why make a change designed to encourage on site revivals? If everyone recognizes that reviving people on site is super easy and as fast or faster than doing a sleeper pull depending on where you are on the station, and yet also feels it is not happening enough, then by that logic this change will solve nothing unless you make pulling so slow that it has massive negative impacts on other parts of the game.

That is the huge hole in this entire thought process that is eluding people. The people who are not doing on site revivals are not bothering with doing it for a reason beyond speed at this point, that much is clear. Making it slightly slower will not meaningfully affect those players, so if this change is only to encourage people already field reviving people to field revive people it is entirely pointless and nonsensical. There is another reason people are not doing a dexalin stab and applying healing items, probably due to just not understanding how potent and deliberate that combination is. If you really want sub-par medics to field revives more maybe make the intended use of their tools more apparent or require less juggling.

[Saegrimr]

If this change is not about changing the behavior of shit players and is instead catered towards people who already are doing on site revivals then why make a change designed to encourage on site revivals? If everyone recognizes that reviving people on site is super easy and as fast or faster than doing a sleeper pull depending on where you are on the station, and yet also feels it is not happening enough, then by that logic this change will solve nothing unless you make pulling so slow that it has massive negative impacts on other parts of the game.

That is the huge hole in this entire thought process that is eluding people. The people who are not doing on site revivals are not bothering with doing it for a reason beyond speed at this point, that much is clear. Making it slightly slower will not meaningfully affect those players, so if this change is only to encourage people already field reviving people to field revive people it is entirely pointless and nonsensical. There is another reason people are not doing a dexalin stab and applying healing items, probably due to just not understanding how potent and deliberate that combination is. If you really want sub-par medics to field revives more maybe make the intended use of their tools more apparent or require less juggling.

It is two part, it will encourage people who would normally drag people off to at least attempt to revive them on the spot maybe, or discourage them from dragging people AWAY from medics trying to do their job.

If new players don't know that "I'm a medic and I have healing items but i'm not going to look into what they actually do or attempt to use them" then they should probably stop playing medic or open up a wiki.

I don't know what rounds you've been watching, but its always a pile of corpses outside of cloning and almost every other round someone is STILL FUCKING GASPING outside cloning, maybe two dudes actually walk out during the course of the round. There isn't much on-site revival going on for multiple reasons, something like this would fix at least 3 of the reasons behind it and maybe cause one more.

[chesquatt]

It looks like most people agree this idea is not so great.

[dezzmont]

If this change is not about changing the behavior of shit players and is instead catered towards people who already are doing on site revivals then why make a change designed to encourage on site revivals? If everyone recognizes that reviving people on site is super easy and as fast or faster than doing a sleeper pull depending on where you are on the station, and yet also feels it is not happening enough, then by that logic this change will solve nothing unless you make pulling so slow that it has massive negative impacts on other parts of the game.

That is the huge hole in this entire thought process that is eluding people. The people who are not doing on site revivals are not bothering with doing it for a reason beyond speed at this point, that much is clear. Making it slightly slower will not meaningfully affect those players, so if this change is only to encourage people already field reviving people to field revive people it is entirely pointless and nonsensical. There is another reason people are not doing a dexalin stab and applying healing items, probably due to just not understanding how potent and deliberate that combination is. If you really want sub-par medics to field revives more maybe make the intended use of their tools more apparent or require less juggling.

It is two part, it will encourage people who would normally drag people off to at least attempt to revive them on the spot maybe, or discourage them from dragging people AWAY from medics trying to do their job.

If new players don't know that "I'm a medic and I have healing items but i'm not going to look into what they actually do or attempt to use them" then they should probably stop playing medic or open up a wiki.

I don't know what rounds you've been watching, but its always a pile of corpses outside of cloning and almost every other round someone is STILL FUCKING GASPING outside cloning, maybe two dudes actually walk out during the course of the round. There isn't much on-site revival going on for multiple reasons, something like this would fix at least 3 of the reasons behind it and maybe cause one more.

You still don't seem to get it.

Absolutely nothing about this change in any way will make people more likely to suddenly realize that on site revivals are good if they are still not doing them. If the medic purely cares about their own time and doesn't understand the power of dexalin, anything besides a huge slowdown which absolutely no one on the server wants is going to work.

You can say it MIGHT discourage them but it clearly wont because it doesn't in any way affect the thought process of existing medics. You are not realistically going to change that with a slowdown unless the slowdown is massive. In fact if medics are mostly sleeper dragging you severely risk them going back to oldschool "I don't give a shit" medics who don't actually heal and instead just let non-medics drag to cloning, because before the sleeper upgrade medics used to be really trashy.

A slowdown doesn't really play into the reason field revives don't happen unless you make it take longer than a minute or two to drag. Which, yeah, no. No one should think that is a good idea.

[Saegrimr]

You still don't seem to get it.

Absolutely nothing about this change in any way will make people more likely to suddenly realize that on site revivals are good if they are still not doing them. If the medic purely cares about their own time and doesn't understand the power of dexalin, anything besides a huge slowdown which absolutely no one on the server wants is going to work.

You can say it MIGHT discourage them but it clearly wont because it doesn't in any way affect the thought process of existing medics. You are not realistically going to change that with a slowdown unless the slowdown is massive. In fact if medics are mostly sleeper dragging you severely risk them going back to oldschool "I don't give a shit" medics who don't actually heal and instead just let non-medics drag to cloning, because before the sleeper upgrade medics used to be really trashy.

A slowdown doesn't really play into the reason field revives don't happen unless you make it take longer than a minute or two to drag. Which, yeah, no. No one should think that is a good idea.

Shit medics will be shit medics, if slowing down their dragging time inconveniences them in the slightest then fine. Maybe they'll rethink their job preferences instead of playing corpse ferryman. If it doesn't then it gives time for people who actually know what the fuck they're doing to catch up and do their job for them instead of whisking them away at lightspeed. That's all there is to it.

You're ignoring that this change would affect multiple other job facets rather than just medics, i'm defending why this wouldn't be a bad change for medics.

you severely risk them going back to oldschool "I don't give a shit" medics who don't actually heal and instead just let non-medics drag to cloning

Considering there is nothing else to the job, he'd just be a greyshirt in a medic outfit. In which case he likely wasn't going to do the job anyway and this change doesn't even affect him.

[cedarbridge]

No I'm not. The medic dumps the guy off at cloning/cyro and calls it a day. Time spent: 10 seconds.

Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

Good medics, of course, don't do this because they care about the patient's time as much as their own, and understand that popping a dex makes reviving people really easy. But if this change is trying to get crappy medics to do more on site revivals it will fail. Now that dexalin is one of the most common items on the station taking someone out of crit basically just requires understanding crit mechanics, popping dex, and bruise packing a guy. People who are not already doing that and are instead dragging to sleepers are not going to be disuaded by a minor slowdown intended to keep dragging bodies reasonably zippy.

If you want to get people reviving on site more one thing you could do is make the utility of dexalin in the process more apparent, or by a not quite upgrade to the medkit by making a doctor's version that looks like it makes it easier but actually doesn't, and creates an illusionary reduction in the amount of work it takes.

I keep reading this post and I'm afraid Sae isn't missing the point as much as you're missing your own. You went into this with the assumption that "all medics are shit." You've also flipfloped a few times on your advocacy which is making your moving target of a point pretty annoying to even discuss.

A good medic doesn't need to drag somebody pointlessly to cloning because they already treated them on-site in about 10 seconds with the tools they're carrying. This is increased by the on-site revives made possible by defibs. This is all faster than Drag to medbay > drag to cloning > clone > cryo. So yes, if you make the first two steps harder to do, the lowest common denominator (who shouldn't be touching patients in the first place) isn't going to bother because they really didn't give a shit in the first place and if doing the wrong thing is a little bit slower, you'll see a decrease in people doing it.

That's assuming that we're even going to boil down everything in the game to that sort of play level in the first place.

[dezzmont]

No I'm not. The medic dumps the guy off at cloning/cyro and calls it a day. Time spent: 10 seconds.

Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

Good medics, of course, don't do this because they care about the patient's time as much as their own, and understand that popping a dex makes reviving people really easy. But if this change is trying to get crappy medics to do more on site revivals it will fail. Now that dexalin is one of the most common items on the station taking someone out of crit basically just requires understanding crit mechanics, popping dex, and bruise packing a guy. People who are not already doing that and are instead dragging to sleepers are not going to be disuaded by a minor slowdown intended to keep dragging bodies reasonably zippy.

If you want to get people reviving on site more one thing you could do is make the utility of dexalin in the process more apparent, or by a not quite upgrade to the medkit by making a doctor's version that looks like it makes it easier but actually doesn't, and creates an illusionary reduction in the amount of work it takes.

I keep reading this post and I'm afraid Sae isn't missing the point as much as you're missing your own. You went into this with the assumption that "all medics are shit." You've also flipfloped a few times on your advocacy which is making your moving target of a point pretty annoying to even discuss.

A good medic doesn't need to drag somebody pointlessly to cloning because they already treated them on-site in about 10 seconds with the tools they're carrying. This is increased by the on-site revives made possible by defibs. This is all faster than Drag to medbay > drag to cloning > clone > cryo. So yes, if you make the first two steps harder to do, the lowest common denominator (who shouldn't be touching patients in the first place) isn't going to bother because they really didn't give a shit in the first place and if doing the wrong thing is a little bit slower, you'll see a decrease in people doing it.

That's assuming that we're even going to boil down everything in the game to that sort of play level in the first place.

You completely jumped the shark here. I did not assume all medics were shit, I made it clear some medics were awesome.

I also didn't really flip flop, please point out to me where I did.

You just reiterated my entire argument. This will do absolutely nothing to change anyone's behavior besides possibly make it worse. If good medics wont care... and bad medics won't care...
who is going to care?

You just overtly stated good medics already do on site revives.

You just overtly stated that bad medics will not really care about this change.

So what are you trying to do? Can you seriously answer that question? If you recognize bad medics won't change their behavior or react to this change, and that good medics are already preforming the behavior that this change is attempting to encourage, then you are, if you are aware of it or not, highlighting that the change has absolutely no point or reason to exist.

You're ignoring that this change would affect multiple other job facets rather than just medics, i'm defending why this wouldn't be a bad change for medics.

The fuck I did. Are you a goldfish? My primary argument for the last 5 pages has been "This change is intensely negative for a lot of people and playing it up as a change to medics is stupid." Just because I changed focus to point out how this makes no sense in actually getting medics to be better medics in a way that doesn't deny that this change is mostly negative for every other role doesn't mean I suddenly disavowed my previous stance.

Your point on "Shitty medics are going to shitty medic" and do it anyway just further reinforces what I am saying. This change doesn't actually help anyone. Lets not act like it will. Doing it to spite people who probably won't really notice it at the expense of everyone else is dumb. Medics didn't re-think their job back when everyone exclusively used the cloner, so pretending they might here for what is a much more minor nerf is silly too.

[Saegrimr]

Are you a goldfish? My primary argument for the last 5 pages has been "This change is intensely negative for a lot of people and playing it up as a change to medics is stupid."

Pardon me for mistaking the context of the original argument when you keep changing positions.

>On-site medical tools are worthless.
>Okay they're not but they take too long to use compared to cloning them.
>I mean it doesn't take that long for the medic.
>I mean for other players, not myself, I would NEVER do that.
>Because a bruise pack is too complicated. For those guys.
>They weren't revive people anyway.
>Well they weren't gonna drag people back anyway.
>Well they weren't going to do anything anyway.

So until you put this in a perspective from people who actually do their job and not Random McGreyshirt wearing a labcoat, i'm done here.

[dezzmont]

You know what? Yeah. I will own that I kinda went from the oldschool medic perspective that first post and outright forgot about the dexalin.

But every other bit of "Confusing movement of point" you point out is in fact, not that confusing.

The fact you can't understand that the medic's perspective is very different than the dead person's and that your logic makes no fucking sense if you actually give a shit about getting people to revive others means I will not miss you in this thread. Your entire argument is "Only shitty medics don't revive so we shouldn't care abut them, but also the goal of this change is to get people to field revive and the only people who don't are shitty medics who never will."

Like what the fuck? Do you even hear yourself? That is complete nonsense and is a textbook failure in logic. Nothing you are saying makes a coherent point because your stated goals, values, and assumptions are all overtly self contradictory.

If we shouldn't give a shit about shitty medics, why design something specifically to make them better medics?

If shitty medics will never revive other people in the field, then that logically means this change could only be aimed at good medics.

If we recognize that good medics already field revive, why would this change affect them at all?

You want this from someone who does their job as a medic? Ok, here we go...

Pre-change:
"Here is a body. I am going to revive it. Ok, done."
Post-change:
"Here is a body. I am going to revive it. Ok, done."

What an amazing and substantial change. I am impressed. What a world of difference you pretended existed and which I pointed out multiple times did not, which is why most of the focus was on poorer medics that this change was trying to improve, because they were the change was talking exclusively about people who don't do this. Because this change only could affect those medics in any way.

Except for one thing. This change could affect decent medics in one way.

Post-change:
"Here is a body. I am going to revive it. Oh no! I messed up! Whelp, time to take extra time to revive him despite doing my best."

So it makes the experience of well intentioned medics WORSE, because it punishes inexperienced medics harder.

You never actually pointed out how this change would be a good thing. You just constantly insist it isn't a bad thing and somehow will make things better except for bad medics, but then turn around and admit bad medics won't care. If anyone is flipflopping it is you because you refuse to actually take a stand and argue for any benefits. You just consistently deny any downsides by trying to change the focus of the discussion or artificially limit who we can think about.

Most importantly, a "Fuck you bad medics" spite change mostly negatively affects players who had nothing to do with deciding how they would be treated, which is why I find your atttiude especially disgusting. By refusing to think about bad medics, you are refusing to think of the end result of trying to make things harder for lazy medics, mainly even longer wait times for people at that cloner that you clearly care about.

[lumipharon]

You keep arguing about good medics and shit medics, when the fact of the matter is, THE MAJORITY of downed people are found by non medics, and taken to medbay LONG before a medic knows or finds them. This is nothing against the skill of a medic, simple facts are
A: There aren't a lot of field medics around, there are a lot of non medics around
B: Not everyone has access to suit sensors
C: Not everyone has suit sensors on
D: Medics can't go everywhere

And honestly if people actually use their medipens, a crit person should live long enough to get to medbay, assuming they're not getting dragged through a hostile environment.

Edit: So to clarify, even if this change is made to ONLY effect crit people, ignoring any other unitended effects, it means the majority of injured people are going to get treatment far, far slower, and antags will just have to stun, cuff and drag instead of... stun, drag and crit? Uhuh.

[dezzmont]

Alright. Lets talk about non-medics rescuing people then.

It is clear that Saegrmir thought that this change would improve outcomes.

How would slowing down the rate people get to medbay improve outcomes?

[Saegrimr]

Edit: So to clarify, even if this change is made to ONLY effect crit people, ignoring any other unitended effects, it means the majority of injured people are going to get treatment far, far slower, and antags will just have to stun, cuff and drag instead of... stun, drag and crit? Uhuh.

The time you spend cuffing someone is significant, you should know this as someone who plays Sec often. You'd also probably understand how frustrating it is to chase someone that is pulling someone else to escape from you (either by stealing your prisoner, trying to get away with their target so they can space them after they beat them to death in front of everyone in front of the bridge or something), beating them in the skull the entire way effectively moonwalking while pulling another person at maximum speed. Or dragging a locker behind them while they escape to block your tazer/disabler shots.

Ideally, for bodies, it would be for anybody laying on the ground. How feasible this actually is code-wise I don't know, but considering this is just an arguement about ideas it really doesn't matter at that point.

Alright. Lets talk about non-medics rescuing people then.

It is clear that Saegrmir thought that this change would improve outcomes.

How would slowing down the rate people get to medbay improve outcomes?

I never once said slowing down dragging would improve outcomes for players being dragged back to medbay. Congratulations.

This would improve the likelihood that as your gasping body is being dragged around that someone would be able to stop them and do something worthwhile instead of letting you die as your teeth are being polished against the floor tiles.

[cedarbridge]

No I'm not. The medic dumps the guy off at cloning/cyro and calls it a day. Time spent: 10 seconds.

Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly why saying cloning takes 2 minutes and thus is completely inferior to on site revival is looking at it from the downed person's perspective and not from the medic's perspective. The guy who is downed has the 2 minute timer, which is why I mentioned that dropping off at the cloner is superior to an on site revival when you are looking at time to outcomes from the medic's perspective. To the medic however he just revived a guy in 10 seconds, which is like... waaaay faster than fiddling around with bruise packs and a dexalin for 30 seconds, or only bruise packs for a minute and a half.

Good medics, of course, don't do this because they care about the patient's time as much as their own, and understand that popping a dex makes reviving people really easy. But if this change is trying to get crappy medics to do more on site revivals it will fail. Now that dexalin is one of the most common items on the station taking someone out of crit basically just requires understanding crit mechanics, popping dex, and bruise packing a guy. People who are not already doing that and are instead dragging to sleepers are not going to be disuaded by a minor slowdown intended to keep dragging bodies reasonably zippy.

If you want to get people reviving on site more one thing you could do is make the utility of dexalin in the process more apparent, or by a not quite upgrade to the medkit by making a doctor's version that looks like it makes it easier but actually doesn't, and creates an illusionary reduction in the amount of work it takes.

I keep reading this post and I'm afraid Sae isn't missing the point as much as you're missing your own. You went into this with the assumption that "all medics are shit." You've also flipfloped a few times on your advocacy which is making your moving target of a point pretty annoying to even discuss.

A good medic doesn't need to drag somebody pointlessly to cloning because they already treated them on-site in about 10 seconds with the tools they're carrying. This is increased by the on-site revives made possible by defibs. This is all faster than Drag to medbay > drag to cloning > clone > cryo. So yes, if you make the first two steps harder to do, the lowest common denominator (who shouldn't be touching patients in the first place) isn't going to bother because they really didn't give a shit in the first place and if doing the wrong thing is a little bit slower, you'll see a decrease in people doing it.

That's assuming that we're even going to boil down everything in the game to that sort of play level in the first place.

You completely jumped the shark here. I did not assume all medics were shit, I made it clear some medics were awesome.

I also didn't really flip flop, please point out to me where I did.

You just reiterated my entire argument. This will do absolutely nothing to change anyone's behavior besides possibly make it worse. If good medics wont care... and bad medics won't care...
who is going to care?

You just overtly stated good medics already do on site revives.

You just overtly stated that bad medics will not really care about this change.

So what are you trying to do? Can you seriously answer that question? If you recognize bad medics won't change their behavior or react to this change, and that good medics are already preforming the behavior that this change is attempting to encourage, then you are, if you are aware of it or not, highlighting that the change has absolutely no point or reason to exist.

Speaking of shark jumping. You just pretended the rest of this thread didn't exist to pretend I'd just agreed with you.

Good medics go out and actually treat patients. Shit medics don't because they never leave the medbay. I'm being real serious here. You're losing content by trying to be verbose and its getting you nowhere because all you're doing is spending line after line repeating a zero content jab. I've already enumerated the reasons I, as a medic, want to see this change.

The issue was never retard medics dragging people to medbay. It was retard non-medics dragging people to medbay and leaving them there for shit medics to ignore/handle poorly (usually while being chased by actual medics trying to treat those patients.) That's the whole content of the medic issue in two lines. All of the extra fluff about "cloning is faster!!!1" etc is all fluff brought up to cloud the actual reasons for the proposed change.

1) A functional nerf to unfun and uninterestingly unbalanced antag tactics (drag-fu)
2) A quality of life change for medics not having to chase patients down hallways.

Lets not talk about goldfish if you're busy muddying the waters and throwing a fit.