Paranoia on a deathtrap

[Malkevin]

Bottom post of the previous page:

At one point it got changed so that thrown mobs don't set off shocks.

Not sure why, but it happened.

[Atticat]

Make death more punishing. As Lumi said, there needs to be something to lose, a consequence to death. Revamp the medical system so people are afraid of getting hurt. These days in ss13 nothing is scary because one stay in a self-serve cryotube is pretty much guarenteed to fix any ailment. Getting hit with 1 laser in the arm should carry the possibility of leaving you an unwilling amputee; getting hit in the leg should possibly make you a cripple only able to crawl across the station, begging for robotics to build you a new appendage.

[PKPenguin321]

Make death more punishing. As Lumi said, there needs to be something to lose, a consequence to death. Revamp the medical system so people are afraid of getting hurt. These days in ss13 nothing is scary because one stay in a self-serve cryotube is pretty much guarenteed to fix any ailment. Getting hit with 1 laser in the arm should carry the possibility of leaving you an unwilling amputee; getting hit in the leg should possibly make you a cripple only able to crawl across the station, begging for robotics to build you a new appendage.

tbh instead of revamping medical we could probably just remove/severely nerf defibs and be gucci

[onleavedontatme]

100% lethal and no control isn't interesting. It isn't scary. It's just dumb and jarring and frustrating.

Nobody hailed the tesla's random teleport instant death trickshot ricochet bolts as the return of paranoia and fun.

Paranoia isn't taking away player agency/choice. Paranoia, well executed in these kinds of "who is the bad guy" games, is muddling that choice to lead people into making the wrong one.

[PKPenguin321]

100% lethal and no control isn't interesting. It isn't scary. It's just dumb and jarring and frustrating.

Nobody hailed the tesla's random teleport instant death trickshot ricochet bolts as the return of paranoia and fun.

Paranoia isn't taking away player agency/choice. Paranoia, well executed in these kinds of "who is the bad guy" games, is muddling that choice to lead people into making the wrong one.

i don't know man, i feel that experiencing frustration after death kind of leads to paranoia
for example, before defibs, if you died and the geneticist didn't know his shit, it was admittedly frustrating as fuck. however, from that point forward, you would not want to die as you would not want to have to experience this again. fear of death = paranoia

even with the tesla, the first time i really encountered it i didn't give a shit, then BZZZZT. now whenever i hear the noise i run like all hell's broken loose. it's actually not bad for paranoia, just bad when it warps onto you with no sound and you instagib.

[Zilenan91]

Not getting cloned by shitty geneticists isn't paranoia, that's just shit. I don't think you quite know what that word means.

I can agree with the tesla. Just hide in a locker and laugh as it shocks everyone but you, then watch, and laugh, in deadchat, after it teleports onto your locker and dusts you.

[PKPenguin321]

Not getting cloned by shitty geneticists isn't paranoia, that's just shit. I don't think you quite know what that word means.

I can agree with the tesla. Just hide in a locker and laugh as it shocks everyone but you, then watch, and laugh, in deadchat, after it teleports onto your locker and dusts you.

course not getting cloned by genetics isn't paranoia, but that wasn't my point

it's that once you've experienced this, you do not want to experience it ever again, which gives a natural aversion to death. not getting revived immediately by a defib leads into paranoia by way of aversion to death = fear of death = aversion to antagonists = fear of antagonists = paranoia

[onleavedontatme]

100% lethal and no control isn't interesting. It isn't scary. It's just dumb and jarring and frustrating.

Nobody hailed the tesla's random teleport instant death trickshot ricochet bolts as the return of paranoia and fun.

Paranoia isn't taking away player agency/choice. Paranoia, well executed in these kinds of "who is the bad guy" games, is muddling that choice to lead people into making the wrong one.

i don't know man, i feel that experiencing frustration after death kind of leads to paranoia
for example, before defibs, if you died and the geneticist didn't know his shit, it was admittedly frustrating as fuck. however, from that point forward, you would not want to die as you would not want to have to experience this again. fear of death = paranoia

even with the tesla, the first time i really encountered it i didn't give a shit, then BZZZZT. now whenever i hear the noise i run like all hell's broken loose. it's actually not bad for paranoia, just bad when it warps onto you with no sound and you instagib.

Yeah you hear the noise, you run. You have choice, you have a chance. You react and run. It's fun. If you die to it now, you feel like you might have made it out, had you run just a bit sooner, or not into that dead end, or whatever.

Oldman's "we need it to be a plane crash where everything is hopeless and miserable and you can't control shit" is the no sound/instagib version (which was basically what parapen/c4 and parasting were, in player form).

[TheNightingale]

Make the sound provide a textual cue in the chatbox too, then.

[Oldman Robustin]

People who think you can have true paranoia from enjoyable outcomes are deluding themselves.

Yes getting 360 noscope paralyzed was really shitty but the tradeoff was that it meant you were REALLY, REALLY PARANOID about fellow crewmates. Throw in antagsec/antagcaptain/stungloves and basically being alone with anyone was like a 5% chance of getting shit on as soon as they got within a tile of you and then spending the next hour stuffed naked in a locker that nobody would ever check. Those hellish scenarios are what made people truly paranoid on SS13.

Was it fun and engaging gameplay (tm)? Not really.

Did it lead to a unique atmosphere that many of us enjoyed in spite of the challenges it presented? YES

[Amnestik]

IMO we need to focus less on mass combat and powerful weaponry, and more on surreptitiousness and subterfuge, while fleshing out the jobs in a fun and probably !FUN! way.

[onleavedontatme]

People who think you can have true paranoia from enjoyable outcomes are deluding themselves.
[/u]

I played Dead of Winter earlier today a couple times, once as normal player, and once as the Betrayer. It's perfectly possible to create an experience that is enjoyable with this sort of gameplay.

Granted it usually requires that everyone is playing in good faith and is not just playing to make other people miserable.

[Takeguru]

IMO we need to focus less on mass combat and powerful weaponry, and more on surreptitiousness and subterfuge, while fleshing out the jobs in a fun and probably !FUN! way.

To have surreptitiousness and subterfuge, you need to have a way to remove your target silently and quick enough so they can't just ";Traitor help"

And that's no fun to be dunked by

I know I go on a lot about it, but old para-lings are a perfect example
They had a method of instant stun+mute, and even though they took time to do their thing, you almost certainly weren't coming back into the round afterwards

It was good for paranoia, but getting ended by it just pissed people off
It wasn't fun to combat and either left a few people gloating at being "robust" at the end of the round or everyone is salty because the changeling got caught and incinerated and the shuttle isn't being called despite 17 people lounging in dead chat and having a shouting match with the now-dead ling

[Luke Cox]

Stealthy traitor item that disables nearby headsets when?

[Saegrimr]

Stealthy traitor item that disables nearby headsets when?

You mean the EMP flashlight? Tap them with it and everything they have is fried.

[PKPenguin321]

Stealthy traitor item that disables nearby headsets when?

My PR that makes EMP flashlights independent from the EMP kit and only cost 2 TCs just went through a little bit ago. Pick one up the next time you're a traitor.

[Saegrimr]

Stealthy traitor item that disables nearby headsets when?

My PR that makes EMP flashlights independent from the EMP kit and only cost 2 TCs just went through a little bit ago. Pick one up the next time you're a traitor.

Hell yeah, that EMP flashlight is the only reason I buy those half the time.

[asskek]

hi

generally the only times I've ever been paranoid in this game are a.) after late joining into an unusually bloody/empty station b.) during xeno rounds and c.) walking the halls during rev/gang

those do a pretty good job of it

Kor has the right idea

[asskek]

IMO we need to focus less on mass combat and powerful weaponry, and more on surreptitiousness and subterfuge, while fleshing out the jobs in a fun and probably !FUN! way.

To have surreptitiousness and subterfuge, you need to have a way to remove your target silently and quick enough so they can't just ";Traitor help"

And that's no fun to be dunked by

I know I go on a lot about it, but old para-lings are a perfect example
They had a method of instant stun+mute, and even though they took time to do their thing, you almost certainly weren't coming back into the round afterwards

It was good for paranoia, but getting ended by it just pissed people off
It wasn't fun to combat and either left a few people gloating at being "robust" at the end of the round or everyone is salty because the changeling got caught and incinerated and the shuttle isn't being called despite 17 people lounging in dead chat and having a shouting match with the now-dead ling

Add chameleon voice changers

[Scott]

100% lethal and no control isn't interesting. It isn't scary. It's just dumb and jarring and frustrating.

Nobody hailed the tesla's random teleport instant death trickshot ricochet bolts as the return of paranoia and fun.

Paranoia isn't taking away player agency/choice. Paranoia, well executed in these kinds of "who is the bad guy" games, is muddling that choice to lead people into making the wrong one.

i don't know man, i feel that experiencing frustration after death kind of leads to paranoia
for example, before defibs, if you died and the geneticist didn't know his shit, it was admittedly frustrating as fuck. however, from that point forward, you would not want to die as you would not want to have to experience this again. fear of death = paranoia

even with the tesla, the first time i really encountered it i didn't give a shit, then BZZZZT. now whenever i hear the noise i run like all hell's broken loose. it's actually not bad for paranoia, just bad when it warps onto you with no sound and you instagib.

Yeah you hear the noise, you run. You have choice, you have a chance. You react and run. It's fun. If you die to it now, you feel like you might have made it out, had you run just a bit sooner, or not into that dead end, or whatever.

Oldman's "we need it to be a plane crash where everything is hopeless and miserable and you can't control shit" is the no sound/instagib version (which was basically what parapen/c4 and parasting were, in player form).

But traitors or changelings aren't a loose tesla ball, so why should the scenarios be similar? Why is it easier to murderbone rampage instead of taking a single target silently? And then people wonder why the RP went down.

[Gun Hog]

The singularity is much more frightening! When you see the station being ripped apart before your very eyes, that is when you know what it means to fear. The changes to the Tesla make it scary in the sense that hearing it makes you try to run, but it is nothing compared to the feeling of navigating an actively changing maze of debris in order to escape the doom slowly approaching you.

[Atticat]

In my view, fear comes from anticipation.

Why isn't it fun to be insta-killed by the tesla machine? Because it teleports randomly to you. The player has no way of seeing it coming. In contrast, players can often watch as the singularity tears the station apart and desperately attempt to avoid it. If lasers were hypothetically super lethal, combat would carry the fear or anticipation of being hit by one, the expectation of losing a limb and becoming an amputee, that, in my opinion, creates at least a small amount of paranoia. I hope to highlight the difference between random death and anticipated death as well. I have fun when I engage in horrible situations that have solutions if I can just act fast and knowledgeably enough; I do not have fun when I feel something was 100% out of my hands.


On a last note, I personally feel that TG station currently isn't receptive to the idea of "losing is fun". Maybe I'm in the minority who think so, but I feel tg station doesn't come anywhere close to resembling a system shock 13 station. Nothing is scary. Death has no punishment. It's not a challenge, but the norm to be a survivor of the average space station round. I anticipate joining deadchat and having full view of the events when I die. I know ghosting is always an option so I can never be trapped. Ghosting is smooth, it is friendly, it is fun. Nobody ever truly has leverage over me.

[Amnestik]

IMO we need to focus less on mass combat and powerful weaponry, and more on surreptitiousness and subterfuge, while fleshing out the jobs in a fun and probably !FUN! way.

To have surreptitiousness and subterfuge, you need to have a way to remove your target silently and quick enough so they can't just ";Traitor help"

And that's no fun to be dunked by

I know I go on a lot about it, but old para-lings are a perfect example
They had a method of instant stun+mute, and even though they took time to do their thing, you almost certainly weren't coming back into the round afterwards

It was good for paranoia, but getting ended by it just pissed people off
It wasn't fun to combat and either left a few people gloating at being "robust" at the end of the round or everyone is salty because the changeling got caught and incinerated and the shuttle isn't being called despite 17 people lounging in dead chat and having a shouting match with the now-dead ling

I'd accompany it with a way to get back into the round as a new role in the wider setting that doesn't suck and takes awhile to get to the station if the player so chooses

The roles would obviously have to be less desirable than crewmember

[onleavedontatme]

Nobody ever truly has leverage over me.

No shit, it's a fucking videogame. You can exit at any time.

[Atticat]

You act like it's impossible, but lifeweb has proven you can create a game filled with paranoia and consequences; have you played it? I assure you, losing both hands in a firefight makes you think twice about starting confrontations. Having your eyes cut out, making you completely blind, makes you think twice about confrontations. Getting your liver stabbed and puking relentlessly , going in and out of consciousness in a dark medical room filled with other unfortunates, makes you think twice. Exiting out is much less satisfying than ghosting so you can see the entire map and join deadchat. Why be afraid of anything in space station when it's impossible for your character to incur actual injuries? I am unsure if you are either against space station being about paranoia, which is fine, or just unaware about what other games have already achieved ahead of this one.

Laser to the arms in ss13 = cryotubes to max health (no consequences)
stabbed in the eyes = bruise patch, no consequences
shot in the face = cryotubes
poisoned = cryotubes
Run over by mule bot = cryotubes
Stabbed with E-sword in the leg = cryotubes
Spear embedded in stomach = pull spear out, cryotubes

The common theme here is almost every injury you will encounter can be fixed by cryotubes 100%, there are zero long-term consequences to getting hurt. There is zero reason to care about getting hurt.

[TheNightingale]

Okay, so hear me out here... what if we ported Baymed?

[Steelpoint]

We'll never get anything done if we keep spouting about how something is not fun.

Well no shit. Getting killed or permanently injured is not meant to be fun.

A good feature does not need to be fun, if it can inflict paranoia or at least fear of injury then I think that's a successful feature, regardless of if its fun.

[Atticat]

I totally understand we all have our own opinions and in no way do I think mine is important by any means, I simply state my beliefs because I care about and love ss13. I see alot of potential for this game to be scary or different.

Apparently, the creator of lifeweb is working on his own version of ss13 that is supposedly almost finished. If it's ever released, I think the players of this community will get a taste of another take on space station where losing is fun!

Really looking forward to a spooky station where suffering is everywhere.

A final note, while getting your limbs lasered off might not be fun, it sure as heck makes surviving firefights fun. Imagine seeing a medbay littered with amputated victims of a nuke ops assault, it makes you feel triumphant when you avoid that fate. There is nothing accomplishing about getting lasered 5 times then standing next to a medibot until you're back to max health.

So anyways, somebody is currently working on what I'm talking about and I'll be applying for playtesting. I will let you lads know how it is if I get in.

[Saegrimr]

Also this wouldn't cause paranoia, this would simply cause fear of injury and fear of an incompetent (or absent) medical staffing.

It wont cause [anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion], just [anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion] of getting your shit slapped for being a retard starting fights.

Hmmmmmm...

[Malkevin]

Okay, so hear me out here... what if we ported Baymed?

You get the VG problem where you euthanize your patients and toss them through a cloner when they damage is too much (or they're lost most of their blood)

[Drynwyn]

Apparently, the creator of lifeweb is working on his own version of ss13 that is supposedly almost finished. If it's ever released, I think the players of this community will get a taste of another take on spaaaaaace station where losing is fun!

Evidence of this?

[Wyzack]

A better medical system with actual injury mechanics and more complex treatment would be fucking amazing and probably do a lot for this game. It has been suggested a gorillion times but it will likely never happen because

1. Nightmare to code/port and
2. Utterly thankless job. Any attempt to make the game more complex and make fights have real consequences will be met with a tide of anusblasted shitters calling you a garbage coder for fucking with their guess the roundtype validhunt. Who wants to take on that sort of bullshit?

[Cheimon]

Yes, it requires a certain amount of bullheaded "I know what's best for the server, and I don't give a shit if the majority think otherwise" for the wheels to start rolling. That attitude might change, it might not, but it's going to be tough for the coder who finally starts it.

[Oldman Robustin]

Nobody ever truly has leverage over me.

No shit, it's a fucking videogame. You can exit at any time.

Which is one of the reasons this isn't "Dead of Winter".

Board games have more buy-in. In a game like this the outcome has to truly suck if you want to make people fear it.

One option is to give people more science-type "project" facilities, if people are invested in the round they will fear death more. My paranoia creeps up when I'm nearing the end of a big RND/Robotics/Xeno/Atmos project. Giving engineers and medics longer-term projects would help get rid of the attitude of "I dont really care if I die" without having to resort to some of the harsher edges of <2013 SS13.

[onleavedontatme]

I am unsure if you are either against space station being about paranoia, which is fine, or just unaware about what other games have already achieved ahead of this one.

I firmly believe, based on the behaviour of our admins, the players (in their constant i ded pls nerf feedback or their i ded pls ban ahelps), and our coders that this community has absolutely no desire for paranoia, despite some grumblings of nostalgia.

If we made the game super deadly and miserable people wouldn't be paranoid. We'd still have the same robotic murder formula players using the flavour of the month to kill as many people as possible every round. They'd just leave more of a mess. We'd also have everyone ten times as mad in adminhelps/admins coming down harder on people since grief would be more destructive.

[Atticat]

I agree with you Kor, wholeheartedly. I believe it will take somebody with a singular vision to create a spinoff of ss13 that is horror/suffering/paranoia based. I don't think it's possible to change TG station to something like this. It's currently happening, so I hope things work out unlike every other reincarnation of ss13 ever...

Lifeweb is scary, it is paranoia inducing, it is not user friendly, it punishes players for mistakes, it has no rules. And yet it is incredibly fun.

[Helios]

Wouldn't the best and easiest way to stop this be Neutral local area comm jamming devices? That stop the sending of messages, but not the reception. It'd require 5 metal, wires, 2 "Intercomm assemblies" from wall mounted intercomms, and some glass.It'd be a 9x9 cube of comm jamming, so if you wanted a way to kill someone, you could build it in maint, emag in and shoot them, or as new cult, build it in your maint trap, shadowlings could camp around them.
The reason people can be less paranoid is that they're sure they can yell "help cult science maint" and everyone will run to there. The most overpowered weapon on the station is a radio, as it can instantly spot and identify antagonists, and is stun resistant.

[ShadowDimentio]

Goon has a traitor item like that. Hilariously, it's not even that useful because people on Goon don't even respond to help calls over the radio usually. Like once I shot the captain with a shotgun and dragged him kicking and screaming halfway across the station and I KNOW someone saw me but straight up didn't give a fuck.

[Steelpoint]

Goonstation's attitudes are not really comparable. I think the only time they give a crap is against Nuke Ops or a Horror Form Changeling, and barely even then.

[Drynwyn]

Goonstation's attitudes are not really comparable. I think the only time they give a crap is against Nuke Ops or a Horror Form Changeling, and barely even then.

That's because goonstation's single-player/PvE/Coop content is "engaging" enough that people can have fun in ways other then fighting other players.

(engaging is in airquotes because the only really engaging part is finding out the secret shit that changes arbitrarily whenever "too many people know about it now lol")

[Zilenan91]

Paranoia doesn't work as game design if you never felt like you had a chance to come out on top. If you're just sitting there talking to people or doing your job and then beep boop you're dead that doesn't promote paranoia, that just means that people will just not play that job, or call the shuttle whenever things go even remotely south. Anything that is designed to make people want to not play the game is terrible.

[lumipharon]

Paranoia doesn't work as game design if you never felt like you had a chance to come out on top. If you're just sitting there talking to people or doing your job and then beep boop you're dead that doesn't promote paranoia, that just means that people will just not play that job, or call the shuttle whenever things go even remotely south. Anything that is designed to make people want to not play the game is terrible.

For all the bitter tears it caused, parasting caused A LOT of paranoia, and it was the pinnacle of ggnore, uncounterable bullshit.

[PKPenguin321]

Paranoia doesn't work as game design if you never felt like you had a chance to come out on top. If you're just sitting there talking to people or doing your job and then beep boop you're dead that doesn't promote paranoia, that just means that people will just not play that job, or call the shuttle whenever things go even remotely south. Anything that is designed to make people want to not play the game is terrible.

so basically, don't make dying harder, but make it way more consequential
IE, nerf the shit out of defibs, as they basically nullify death pretty much every other time you die

[Zilenan91]

That doesn't create paranoia, that just makes people not play the game. The game will simply never be designed around paranoia, not without changing the entire thing.

[PKPenguin321]

That doesn't create paranoia, that just makes people not play the game. The game will simply never be designed around paranoia, not without changing the entire thing.

having death be an actual penalty instead of something you can laugh off makes you not want to die
not wanting to die and having an actual fear of death sure sounds like paranoia to me

[Incomptinence]

I like my solution to basically free up bodies from this admin enforced sacred corpse honour system so people can just choose to eat, cremate them or shoot them into space. Things we have good crew standing by to perform for us mind.

[Steelpoint]

A short trial of removing cloning (not the ability for RnD to research it mind you) would at the very least be a interesting experiment.

[imblyings]

Like kor said, its likely that despite all the talk for it, no one actually wants paranoia.

Paranoia here would just lead to things people might label as powergaming anyway. Id wager most other places who have paranoia without tg level competency/powergaming also have a well built safety net of rules and restrictions which make a player feel safe or guaranteed in his fun at the same time.

[Scott]

Paranoia doesn't work as game design if you never felt like you had a chance to come out on top. If you're just sitting there talking to people or doing your job and then beep boop you're dead that doesn't promote paranoia, that just means that people will just not play that job, or call the shuttle whenever things go even remotely south. Anything that is designed to make people want to not play the game is terrible.

Except it has worked in the past.

[lumipharon]

^

When I first started playing I died more rounds then I survived.
Most rounds for that matter ended with most of the crew dead one way or another.

Today, 90% of the time when the shuttle leaves, almost all the crew are alive and well onboard.

There was plenty of bullshit deaths, but that just made it more interesting. People used to rage about getting killed 10 minutes into 2 hour ling rounds - now, people just complain about being dead for 10 minutes.

[PKPenguin321]

^

When I first started playing I died more rounds then I survived.
Most rounds for that matter ended with most of the crew dead one way or another.

Today, 90% of the time when the shuttle leaves, almost all the crew are alive and well onboard.

There was plenty of bullshit deaths, but that just made it more interesting. People used to rage about getting killed 10 minutes into 2 hour ling rounds - now, people just complain about being dead for 10 minutes.

the only rounds where i have to complain about being dead are rounds where i'm an antag and i've been validhunted
crew gets like two autocloners if science knows their shit and basically has no reason to die ever because of things like defibs (unless a traitor goes out of his way to gib every single victim)
and even when I do die as an antag, there's always the 40,000 ghost roles i can come back as :^)