Saltball's Grab Nerf

[ShadowDimentio]

For what purpose

[TechnoAlchemist]

I guess goof "doesn't play" ball played and got tabled and then grudgecoded.

[ShadowDimentio]

Tabling is a shadow of its former glory, it's like a microsecond stun. How does one produce salt towards that which cannot dunk you

[iamgoofball]

I guess goof "doesn't play" ball played and got tabled and then grudgecoded.

[Saegrimr]

Don't worry he'll just add a "Neurostim Slim Jim" reagent to goofchem that allows for more robust tabling.

[iamgoofball]

well actually someone walked up to me while I was wrenching something down, grabbed me, quickaggro'd since there's no cooldown on passive->aggro, then neckgrabbed me

then I found out that the resist grab escape was literally broken and has been for 4 years,

then i found out the prob to get out of a neck grab by moving(which was the only way to get out due to resist being broken)
is 5% chance

and it increases your move delay to like 30 seconds

and then to add on, it stuns/weakens you, meaning you can't move at all

therefore, you literally couldn't escape a grab

[Aloraydrel]

I will say it again that if you get placed into a choke hold it is usually 90% your fault. Meme change

[iamgoofball]

and that's an excuse for it being impossible to escape due to bugs?

for all you guys talk about counter play memes there's no counter if you get neckgrabbed

[CPTANT]

Grabs are almost never used, are hard to apply and take ages to actually crit someone.

You gotta have options in the game besides stunning and cuffing you know.

[Wyzack]

Neck grabs were the only reliable way to restrain lings. Everyone assumed it was a feature, good thing this horrible fun bug was removed

[ShadowDimentio]

and that's an excuse for it being impossible to escape due to bugs?

for all you guys talk about counter play memes there's no counter if you get neckgrabbed

>No counters
>Except literally just moving before you get neckgrabbed

Bugfixing is fine but pairing it with GRUDGECODING NERFS :^))) is inexcuseable

[leibniz]

then I found out that the resist grab escape was literally broken and has been for 4 years,

so thats why resist never worked since years, I thought I was doing it wrong or whatever

[Luke Cox]

Changelog entry reads as "I know this change is retarded but I don't care"

[Gun Hog]

Oldman Robustin did this to me twice, just to get a rise from me. You do not see me throwing up grudge PRs to nerf everything that makes me angry...

[lumipharon]

You have to be not paying attention/chain stunned/cuffed to gete neck grabbed in the first place.

Yes there is no delay between passive grab and aggressive grab, but there is a significant one to go to neck grab. Now there is literally no point in ever trying to neckgrab someone. Please, prove me wrong.

[lzimann]

Not like an agressive grab can do anything other than throwing someone to a wall or tabling. And the move delay is to the one that is grabbing, not the one being grabbed.

[Luke Cox]

They key point here is that you have to stun your target before you can reliably get them in an aggressive grab. Somebody fucked with goofball in-game, he got pissy and grudgecoded this. I know it gets thrown around a lot, but "git gud" really does apply here.

[TechnoAlchemist]

The delay for neckgrab is already huge, so either you got carp fu'd or you are just bad I am sorry

[PKPenguin321]

I've already made a PR to scale this back, although it should really be reverted entirely (but the revert got denied because "muh kneejerk XD!")

reposting my github post about why this was a shit nerf:

also i'd like to point out that with goofball's nerfs, this would happen:
1. you go for a neckgrab
2. it takes literally as long as killgrabs did prenerf (see: standing still for like 15 odd seconds)
3. during this time the person you are grabbing can move at any moment and break out meaning that the idea of getting the grab in the first place is outright unrealistic
4. if you somehow miraculously get them into a neckgrab, they are not stunned at all and can immediately try to break out
5. they proc a breakout approx. 1 time per second with a 50% chance of breaking out every time
6. to upgrade to a killgrab you need to stand still for 20~ more seconds (each second has a 50% chance of the person breaking out! 20 coin flips all landing on heads!) without them breaking out, which statistically will never realistically happen ever

he effectively removed killgrabs, and made neckgrabs so mindbogglingly worthless that he may as well have removed those too
shame on whoever thought it was a good PR

tl;dr: goof didn't just nerf neckgrabbing but effectively removed it and nobody noticed

[Aloraydrel]

and that's an excuse for it being impossible to escape due to bugs?

for all you guys talk about counter play memes there's no counter if you get neckgrabbed

Called moving or not getting stunned tbh

[TheNightingale]

There does need to be a way to escape neckgrabs, but triggering a 50% chance 20 times doesn't seem quite right.

[lumipharon]

If you have time to neckgrab someone you have enough time to drag them into maint, find some wire, make cable cuffs and cuff them. And you can't break out of those without standing there for 30 seconds not moving, and no on complains about that.

[Zilenan91]

Grabs are weird and retarded. I've disarmed/stunned/ran away from a guy neckgrabbing me before, only for it to fail/still neckgrab/literally teleport me through walls into their grasp.

[oranges]

grabs are going away

[Luke Cox]

grabs are going away

Given the feedback in this thread, coderbus may want to rethink that

[ShadowDimentio]

>Implying coderbus doesn't just do whatever they feel like until a normie steps in and makes change themselves (See: Newcult and American Hero Oldman)

[1g88a]

grabs are going away

I was under the impression that coderbus wanted to outright replace the grab code, not make grabs something that cannot happen.

If you remove grabs you have to remove all wrestling related items.

[Zilenan91]

They want to do a bit of both from what I know.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Remove grabs

W H Y

The help/disarm/harm/grab cube works so perfectly well, what possible reasons would we want to remove grabs

[Zilenan91]

shitcode, more intuitive alternatives

[ShadowDimentio]

If they actually develop a GOOD grab 2.0 alternative then I'll be cool, but coderbus has a fucking terrible track record of starting ambitious projects, giving up and pushing through shit half-finished project (disablers, goofchem, newcult, ling, and so many more) that only serve to shit up everything.

[onleavedontatme]

We have a great alternative already. Click/drag is far better in most situations.

The tricky thing to replace is mob throws.

[Steelpoint]

Didn't people only get put in a grab hold is if they are either utterly inattentive or are stunned before hand?

Sure if you've got great ping to the server and someone who is busy doing something else then you MAY get something out of it, but otherwise it seems so much a non-issue and a literal 'I ded pls nerf' change.

[Luke Cox]

a literal 'I ded pls nerf' change.

This is literally what it is. Goofball isn't even trying to hide this. Grudgecode at its finest.

On a related note, what's with coderbus' hateboner for grab intent?

[CPTANT]

a literal 'I ded pls nerf' change.

This is literally what it is. Goofball isn't even trying to hide this. Grudgecode at its finest.

On a related note, what's with coderbus' hateboner for grab intent?

Grab intent must have been so overused, it left entire stations dead in its path.

[Incomptinence]

I was once aggressive choked across like half the station once before they finally killed me. Honestly I found it really funny, bring back the pain.

[Davidchan]

hugbox 2016

[Oldman Robustin]

Stuff like this comes around routinely to destroy whatever iota of faith I'd slowly built up for coderbus. Meme PR, large amounts of opposition, gets merged within 48 hours without even getting a controversial tag.

I just look at the PR page some days and feel like giving up, I tried to focus my opposition on the "borderline" PR's that are bad but have enough support to get merged if someone doesn't speak up. Then I ignore meme PR's like this that I'm certain will get closed, only to see them merged a day later.

[ShadowDimentio]

Oldman you're doing god's work

[Gamarr]

Stuff like this comes around routinely to destroy whatever iota of faith I'd slowly built up for coderbus. Meme PR, large amounts of opposition, gets merged within 48 hours without even getting a controversial tag.

It's almost like they are purposefully sabotaging sometimes when shit like this pops up and is allowed to go through despite its stupidity (and vitriolic player response, earned in this case). Grabs were useful, and not for choking, but those are all gone now too with this nerf shit.
Don't burn yourself out, CJS.

[onleavedontatme]

It already got halfway reverted, chill.

[Luke Cox]

Why are people allowed to get away with shit like this?

[iamgoofball]

i have the right to put up PRs

i've already supported the de-nerf

the only serious problem I had with grabs was being unable to escape them, PK's PR made it so grabs are 2good again but you can actually escape again

a literal 'I ded pls nerf' change.

This is literally what it is. Goofball isn't even trying to hide this. Grudgecode at its finest.

On a related note, what's with coderbus' hateboner for grab intent?

Alright, so here's the deal with grab code:

it's about 5 to 6 years old at this point

pretty much no one touches grab code

it's laggy as fuck(we had people telling stories in the nerf PR about how they got grabbed by someone, ran off, and then suddenly teleported back into the person's neck grab)

the code is broken in many ways
see: resisting out of grabs has been broken for 4+ years according to the old guard players(most of them thought it was a feature despite their being like 80-100+ lines dedicated to escaping grabs

and finally, the killer:

We have Pull. Pull code is new. Pull code is actually nice. Pull code isn't doing everything manually. If we can recreate all grab uses with pull, we can kill grabcode and make it actually useful.

[Zilenan91]

Speaking of shitty prs, the Neurotoxin nerf disguised as a tweak https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/16404. Literally why.

[PKPenguin321]

We have a great alternative already. Click/drag is far better in most situations.

The tricky thing to replace is mob throws.

1. will never ever be used in combat due to requiring precise mouse movements in otherwise generally spam-clicky combat
2. upgrading grabs with click+drag will be janky as fuck with no UI feedback
3. click+drag is already used for stripping
just make it function the way it already does but clean up the code if it's such as issue

[lumipharon]

Pretty much the above.
You can grab someone mid combat with spam clicking, where as pull does not.

I don't even know how you intend to replace upgraded grabs/throws with pull.

Why can like, grab code not just be written or something, but then, if you're intended to actually give pull all of grabs functionality, that's basically what has to happen anyway...

[MisterPerson]

There's literally no reason to have both. Pulling is generally more well liked.

[PKPenguin321]

There's literally no reason to have both. Pulling is generally more well liked.

>give a list of reasons
>"There's literally no reason"
thanks MisterReadingcomprehension

[Luke Cox]

There's literally no reason to have both. Pulling is generally more well liked.

Comparing grab to pull is a total false equivalency and you know it. Pulling is for moving shit, grab is for combat.

[Malkevin]

Speaking of shitty prs, the Neurotoxin nerf disguised as a tweak https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/16404. Literally why.

Glad that didn't get merged, it would've made the first six units of either chemical useless and would've taken about 30 seconds for them to actually do anything useful.