Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

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Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Gouty » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:38 pm #364228

Meme shuttles are cool. But if you buy the hyperfractal gigashuttle, or the arena, or the asteroid, or that one that is full of plasma stuff (that might have just been an adminmeme though) people are going to die. Should you be allowed to do it as a non-antag? Discuss



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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Nabski » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 pm #364232

I think they're hilarious, so yes. It's not like you have no warning about it, and you can always pussy out and take a pod.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby EagleWiz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:45 pm #364236

I'd say the captain should be able to buy dangerous meme shuttles as long as its not an every round thing, but if your not an antag and you buy a meme shuttle that you could reasonably expect to cause deaths and then people die I see no reason to treat it differently from SM sabotage or releasing plasma or [insert other deliberate creation of death trap here].

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Bluespace » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:47 pm #364240

Remember that pods are available and it's extremely rare for every pod to be filled.
Meme shuttles exist to provide some minor conflict or survival, and provide interaction between the captain and the crew.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby EagleWiz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:02 pm #364257

Bluespace wrote:Meme shuttles exist to provide some minor conflict or survival, and provide interaction between the captain and the crew.
All is good as is.


Most bad shuttle purchases aren't captains interacting with the crew, they are greyshirts stealing all access and ordering the shuttle in an attempt to annoy sec and command so they can feel cool by evading or outrobusting them.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Cobby » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:25 pm #364270

I still believe the very deadly ones should be high priced shuttles, as I'd prefer "paying to 'grief' " over "getting paid to 'grief' ".
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:57 pm #364284

Bluespace wrote:Remember that pods are available and it's extremely rare for every pod to be filled.
Meme shuttles exist to provide some minor conflict or survival, and provide interaction between the captain and the crew.
All is good as is.


Nabski wrote:I think they're hilarious, so yes. It's not like you have no warning about it, and you can always pussy out and take a pod.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Deitus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:49 pm #364312

i still find it funny that people see the asteroid as game-breakingly deadly. if you dont have the presence of mind to think to yourself "huh i bet this huge grid of blue circles that usually denote a shuttle arrival are nothing" for a full ten seconds (not counting the time it actually takes to spawn in), that is frankly a massive case of the gitguds.

that said, some of the other shuttles like the supermatter shuttle are a bit much even in my opinion.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Arianya » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:59 pm #364320

The previous ruling on this was that deadly meme shuttles on the odd occasion are fine. Buying the asteroid every round is probably when its time to bwoink.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:37 am #364338

what if 2 shuttles
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Gouty » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 am #364348

Bluespace wrote:Remember that pods are available

Except Omega Station

PKPenguin321 wrote:what if 2 shuttles

Yes pleeese

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Deitus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:56 am #364351

Arianya wrote:The previous ruling on this was that deadly meme shuttles on the odd occasion are fine. Buying the asteroid every round is probably when its time to bwoink.
Buying the asteroid every round


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w-who would do that h-haha
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby CitrusGender » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:33 am #364367

My policy has always been if it has been called more than twice in a row, they are asked to stop. Usually, I'll tell them the round before to stop, never leave a note for it unless it becomes a habit. It's funny when it happens, though (again) things get less funny if they happen each round.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby TehSteveo » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:44 am #364375

It should be fine as long as people don't run it into the ground. Having the same shuttle called every round for five hours straight kills the point of something that is different and fun.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby ShadowDimentio » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:15 am #364381

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:01 am #364475

i believe this should be allowed as long as they don't spam "wooden box" for 5 hours on end.
i also believe that if they use a bad shuttle they (help or directly) open themselves up to conflict and retaliation from the crew, who doesn't want to be on a wooden box to blow the fuck up.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:34 am #364478

I had a problem with this long ago before the blue bubbles got added, and even afterwards its hard to spot them against the light grey tile floors.

The real problem here, as with anything remotely fun on this game:
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby DrPillzRedux » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:47 pm #364501

>give people the option to freely buy a shuttle
>can't freely buy a shuttle

Either true freedom to buy whatever as many times as you want or make it admin approval like station names you fucking commies.

Or here's an idea: code it so you can't buy the same shuttle as the previous round
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Arianya » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:08 pm #364507

Or just don't buy asteroid with engines every round.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Screemonster » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:01 pm #364596

Seeding a random list of shuttle options every round to choose from would be pretty slick

like one shit-tier shuttle, a couple of mid-range, a couple of premium, and a luxury

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Anonmare » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:00 pm #364617

Why not restrict the dangerous shuttles to an emag list

>inb4 >emag bloat
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:02 pm #364618

>headmin says this is literally fine just take pods you pussies

>2 admins waltz in and say YEAH IMA BWOINK PEOPLE ANYWAYS

come on

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Dax Dupont » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:14 pm #364627

Gouty wrote:or that one that is full of plasma stuff (that might have just been an adminmeme though)

It's not an admeme, it's my Disco Inferno shuttle.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33230
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Also, what do you consider dangerous? I'd consider Oh Hi Daniel and Asteroid dangerous too. Those always lead to at least one death that wouldn't happen otherwise.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby kevinz000 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:30 pm #364652

Asteoroid is fine if you don't dodge it it your fault
Wooden box is the worst there's no way to dodge a bomb on there no matter how small unless it's a low effort 50/50.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby RogueSteampunker » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:47 pm #364674

>Arguing that dangerous shuttles shouldn't be buyable as a nonantag.

>Admins still bwoink people over asking for nuke codes multiple rounds in a row

Quite simply, it's only a problem when spammed, and that's the point when an admin steps in. We don't need to neuter ANOTHER part of the game because one shuttle is a little easier to bomb than the other.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Karp » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:03 pm #364685

honestly the meteor shuttle is more beneficial than harmful and i genuinely think outside of crushing retards it trumps all other shuttles thanks to its size, but Mark and the stv are shit because a shitty bomb can kill everyone on those shuttles instantly
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Nilons » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:27 pm #364701

Like 70% of all things policy & humour, its only shit when it's overdone
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Rustledjimm » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:21 pm #365022

I would say it's entirely fine up to a point.

When it actually becomes noticeable that someone is buying the same crappy shuttle again and again then it's gone too far and is spam they should get a quick warning bwoink.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Arianya » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:43 pm #365066

Arianya wrote:The previous ruling on this was that deadly meme shuttles on the odd occasion are fine. Buying the asteroid every round is probably when its time to bwoink.



Glad we get to have this thread again for the exact same result.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Shadowlight213 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:44 am #367411

kevinz000 wrote:Asteoroid is fine if you don't dodge it it your fault
Wooden box is the worst there's no way to dodge a bomb on there no matter how small unless it's a low effort 50/50.


"Your fault"
Unless of course botany has filled the exit from escape with banana peels. Which i have seen numerous times.

Cobby wrote:I still believe the very deadly ones should be high priced shuttles, as I'd prefer "paying to 'grief' " over "getting paid to 'grief' ".


This. Seriously. I asked this before, and Kor's excuse was that "well it endangers the crew so you would never buy it normally otherwise." Which is complete bs honestly.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby onleavedontatme » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:27 am #367415

Why would the admins who consider it griefing to buy Shuttle A suddenly consider it good behavior if Shuttle A functioned the exact same but also bankrupted cargo

If you bring something less than ideal to the station there should be some kind of tradeoff bonus for doing so (and vice versa)

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Cobby » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:47 am #367423

Kor wrote:Why would the admins who consider it griefing to buy Shuttle A suddenly consider it good behavior if Shuttle A functioned the exact same but also bankrupted cargo

If you bring something less than ideal to the station there should be some kind of tradeoff bonus for doing so (and vice versa)


I don't consider it good behavior but it wouldn't be right for me to ban for it when the people who die are the ones okay with it and the common mentality is that it's okay to do as a nonantag nonconsecutively.I don't like the shuttles to begin with when they're just there for lolgrief, it's just that now it's

1) uncommon enough to not be a nuisance which seems to be the default here AND now admins are pretty much out of the equation because the mechanics enforce the policy (a good thing imo).
2) not a benefit to anyone now that cargo doesn't get credits, meaning you're open to retaliation since you don't have any excuse.

Also you can "bank" the money by placing it in stock. If you don't want to lose it to shitler captains greys being greys someone totally on accident confirming the death shuttle purchase, invest today!

Just take a look at the luxury shuttle. It's basically pay to grief cargo doubly (buying the shuttle along with taking money from vault to get in) along with paying to grief the crew (the poor mans section is a deathtrap worse than oh hi daniel). 0 Issues with it being spammed and 0 issues with people griping about how cargo is now fugged, no?

Let's be clear, we (I) are not encouraging the shuttles to be priced so they may be obtained roundstart and can just lolnope cargo's basic starting points. I am expecting them to be on par with luxury and arena so they take a while to get if gotten at all.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby leibniz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 am #367443

tbh smaller shuttles are a bigger issue than dangerous ones
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Calibraptor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:29 pm #367448

I like buying the asteroid shuttle because it's basically sanctioned griefing :^)
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Limski » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:29 pm #367449

Calibraptor wrote:I like buying the asteroid shuttle because it's basically sanctioned griefing :^)

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Dax Dupont » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:07 pm #367457

@cobby, there's indeed a reason why I priced the disco inferno shuttle as much as the arena and luxury shuttle.

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:08 pm #367481

captains that buy these shuttles are valid and im gonna laugh at them if they ahelp for being killed. if youre gonna do shitty things you better be robust enough to back it up.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Qbopper » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:48 pm #367549

BeeSting12 wrote:captains that buy these shuttles are valid and im gonna laugh at them if they ahelp for being killed. if youre gonna do shitty things you better be robust enough to back it up.


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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:30 pm #367560

Qbopper wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:captains that buy these shuttles are valid and im gonna laugh at them if they ahelp for being killed. if youre gonna do shitty things you better be robust enough to back it up.


i didn't know you were a headmin

ive seen headmins rule on that before

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11930#p313973
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Qbopper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:04 am #367576

i was mostly shitposting
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Rustledjimm » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:11 am #367665

Qbopper wrote:i was mostly shitposting

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:09 am #367670

I joked that some of these shuttles were flying policy threads.

On one hand I support Captain having discretion to do stupid dangerous shit and let ~emergent RP~ take care of it. Or alternatively, don't ride the death shuttles if you don't want to die. They invented pods for a reason.

On the other hand we have all sorts of decisions punishing captains for doing dangerous shit. My last ban was upheld because even my bounty for lizard/cat tails COULD have (but didn't) result in people dying/having their round ruined.

Yet here we are where Captains are totally allowed to order shuttles that have a 99.999% of killing innocents.

There needs to be a guiding principle here because its cases like this that show how our policy is an incoherent patchwork for the harder cases.

Also @shitty tradeoff logic:

Tradeoffs are only meaningful is the person who benefits has to pay a meaningful price. No captain has ever cared about Cargo unless someone emagged the console or its a revolution. Hell, captains are more likely to benefit if a broke-ass cargo isn't cracking open weapon crates. The only thing high prices do is keep the dumbass captains who dont know about tech disks from ordering the high-end grief and settling for basic-grief packages like Oh, Hi Daniel. That's hardly a nuanced tradeoff that keeps grief shuttles in line.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:18 am #367672

the Oh, Hi Daniel did nothing wrong >:(

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Cobby » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:30 am #367676

@Robustin the trade off is now Cargo is pissed at you so enjoy getting valided at the earliest convenience 8-)
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Dax Dupont
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:40 pm #367741

Doesn't pubby station lack pods?

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby feem » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:52 pm #367756

ordering the asteroid should not give you money

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby onleavedontatme » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:02 pm #367759

Cobby wrote:@Robustin the trade off is now Cargo is pissed at you so enjoy getting valided at the earliest convenience 8-)


And would you ban him if he killed the mutineers?

I should have just made them automated and random to avoid all this I dont know why one of the most stressful and understaffed roles getting to decide the round end twist is so unpalatable to some admins

@Robustin I pretty regularly see people buy the asteroid shuttle as soon as the war declaration comes in, at least some people are using it as intended

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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Cobby » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:10 pm #367764

No because he owns the station, including cargo and shuttle purchases. He’s within his right to do that, you’re within your right to fight back if you’re inclined, and he’s within his right to defend himself should you choose that.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Rustledjimm » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:12 pm #368232

Cobby wrote:No because he owns the station, including cargo and shuttle purchases.


Actually no he's in control of the station. NanoTrasen own it. Do you know the difference between ownership and control?

I'm gonna need to know your age sorry.
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Re: Dangerous shuttle purchases as non-antag.

Postby Shaps-cloud » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:12 pm #368273

The asteroid isn't the biggest issue, you can step out of the way easily. The big issues are the hyperfractal and inferno shuttles, and to a lesser extent the incredibly small ones that can be easily wiped clean by one bomb.

Shuttles are also most definitely not "a reward for the captain", it's a "reward" for whoever steals all access and sneaks onto the bridge or captains office, then immediately fucks off.

Making the captain valid doesn't count as fair play for ordering a dangerous shuttle because you're basically reenacting a reverse copy of the "kill Ian so that the HoP tries to attack you so you can kill him" situation we hated so much, except the person baiting the fight has access to all the guns on the station, a very dangerous sword, and the entirety of security and command under him. Not only do you need to actually kill the captain (no small task), you need to make sure that everyone from command and security is either onboard or doesn't care, or you're gonna get yourself killed.

And lastly, letting the captain/whoever else giggle to themselves because they ordered a shuttle that can/will get people killed without getting in trouble is the lamest kind of reward that goes against everything we expect from players in the rules. You literally cannot argue that this doesn't stick out from normal expectations of the rules.
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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