[Saegrimr] Upcoming Ban 22/07/2015

[Scones]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Stopped by a HUD-wearing Detective for wearing mesons

Arrested later on, wordlessly, and the first thing he strips from me are the mesons

Put in perma by the Detective.

Summarily executed later by the Detective, who straitjackets my corpse and hides it in the unlit Sanitarium.

[drovidi]

The ban in question is not for a specific action, it's for a pattern of action. What I posted is relevant to the ban this thread is discussing because it's an example of an action consistent with that pattern. I mostly posted it to response to Kor, who I think's giving Tornadium more benefit of the doubt than is due.
I hope, Kor, that you don't lift the ban unless you've reviewed the things he's done and you're confident that everyone who's saying that he plays security in a way that damages rounds more than it helps is mistaken. Plenty of traitors get caught by security. Plenty of clowns get dunked for doing stupid things. There's an objection to this guy in particular for a reason.

(Also, Tor, I think it's cute that you're arguing that you weren't toeing the line by saying that no one action you took materially broke a rule.)

[Tornadium]

Stopped by a HUD-wearing Detective for wearing mesons

I asked you where did you get Mesons. I also asked you why you bolted the split second I came anywhere near you.

Arrested later on, wordlessly, and the first thing he strips from me are the mesons

Actually the first thing I did was empty your pockets and check your bag. I had been observing you for a while, as had other officers. You were shift as fuck and not even trying to hide it by running the SECOND we came near you multiple times.

Put in perma by the Detective.

You had an E-Sword, So yeah I did. After I had already tried to contact the Captain and the Head of Security to no avail.

Summarily executed later by the Detective, who straitjackets my corpse and hides it in the unlit Sanitarium.

No you tried to attack me in the permabrig when I went to check if you had escaped or not. Had i slipped on the soap instead of you, I was dead.

The ban in question is not for a specific action, it's for a pattern of action. What I posted is relevant to the ban this thread is discussing because it's an example of an action consistent with that pattern. I mostly posted it to response to Kor, who I think's giving Tornadium more benefit of the doubt than is due.
I hope, Kor, that you don't lift the ban unless you've reviewed the things he's done and you're confident that everyone who's saying that he plays security in a way that damages rounds more than it helps is mistaken. Plenty of traitors get caught by security. Plenty of clowns get dunked for doing stupid things. There's an objection to this guy in particular for a reason.

(Also, Tor, I think it's cute that you're arguing that you weren't toeing the line by saying that no one action you took materially broke a rule.)

Oh it was originally for specific actions, Then it turned out they were all false so it retroactively got turned into a rule 0 ban. Well, your post is irrelevant because the first half was 100% not me, I was part of the issue on the bridge with the Captain saying he wanted to let you go (Logs already confirmed this, you're late to the party check the other thread).

No one has actually said what I these "patterns of behavior" are yet? You keep throwing these vague terms around and you haven't yet come up with one that is valid.

It's cute that not a single thing I did in that round was anything close to rule breaking and a headmin ruled on that already?

[Scones]

I don't know how people attack you without anything in the attack logs

[Tornadium]

I don't know how people attack you without anything in the attack logs

You died on top of the soap, you were hidden in the bathroom in perma. You rushed into me intent on pushing me into the soap.

Lets not be under any illusions here, Had I been slipped I was dead.

[Scones]

Logs can't prove anything either way, but you were standing out of it's line the entire time.

[Tornadium]

Logs can't prove anything either way, but you were standing out of it's line the entire time.

Nope I was stupid enough to walk into the door to open it.

[NikNakFlak]

Hi, I log dived.
http://privatepaste.com/ab55e1d7b6
That's as far as I'm involved in this.

[Tornadium]

Hi, I log dived.
http://privatepaste.com/ab55e1d7b6
That's as far as I'm involved in this.

I'm happy to go through that with you if you want to jump on IRC or Teamspeak.

There seems to be some heavy miscommunication here with regards to what's in those logs, outright assumptions more than anything else. There is far too much to go through in quotes but if I really have to, I'm happy to provide context that those cherry picked logs are certainly lacking.

For example I didn't even know until that round that Thermals were still a thing. I thought they were gone. Also engineering doesn't (I think?) have enough suits for the entire department right?.

Also as reference to HG, No I didn't go into the armory to get a taser. The borg gave me the taser much earlier in the round.

[NikNakFlak]

Don't address me, I don't make any calls. Up to everyone else involved here. etc etc.

[Tornadium]

Don't address me, I don't make any calls. Up to everyone else involved here. etc etc.

Well you were kind enough to call me a liar and several other things in those logs while lacking context regarding pretty much every single incident.

I feel like it's important to walk you through what you just said and contest it.

Alright fuck it time to go through this bit by bit I guess.

[Tornadium]

<NikNakFlak> Who did he even get access to perma as a detective
<NikNakFlak> how*
<NikNakFlak> HoP?
<Scones> I wasn't really paying attention at that point, officer was around there but he let himself in to kill me later on
<Scones> (I had thermals, he entered unassisted)
<NikNakFlak> and straightjacketed the corpse? <NikNakFlak> or were you already
<Scones> And hid it in the dark sanitarium
<leibniz> why were you arrested later on
<Scones> who knows, leibniz? I like it when hud-wearing detective silently taze and arrest me
<Scones> It was a stupid meta search and he had spent the whole round doing silly shit like that

The clown's all access ID that he used to lock us in the prison wing three times I believe.

That's how I got into Perma. Just as a point now, If I was metagaming and thinking those mesons were thermals (I wasn't) then why weren't they removed when you got to perma?.

It wasn't a stupid meta search, You were acting shifty. The other officer even said when you were arrested that it wasn't random. Feel free to check that part of the log since it's conveniently omitted. The other two times I searched people that round included justified investigation after sounds of violence and someone yelling over the radio that they were being shot. I arrive and the dude is standing right next to the bullet casings.

You draw your own conclusion from that.

<NikNakFlak> As he states, he's allowed to know what traitor items are what
<Scones> But is he allowed to search people because they are wearing mesons?
<NikNakFlak> is it meta to know that traitors can sometimes have mesons that are actually thermals?
<Scones> It's meta to search someone solely because they had mesons, all this guy does it meta and he has a horrible history of security with admins and players alike
<NikNakFlak> Is if it's code blue, mesons could be a reason. You were an assistant yes?
<NikNakFlak> Shitty, yes?
<NikNakFlak> But bannable, maybe not.
<NikNakFlak> As kor said, if you want to rule 0 him, do it. But you can't ban him for actually <Scones> But coming into perma and killing me, hiding the body for no reason beyond "I was an antagonist"
<NikNakFlak> not metagaming <NikNakFlak> again shitty <Scones> As Detective
<NikNakFlak> and against the rules because he executed you without permission
<NikNakFlak> kinda
<leibniz> i dont think mesons is a good reason
<NikNakFlak> he claims captain and HoS were not responding
<NikNakFlak> It's not a good reason
<NikNakFlak> but it's not really bannable
<Scones> I mean I will cede that meson search is a grey area but noreason execution
<Scones> like
<NikNakFlak> unless we start putting restrictions on antag objects
<leibniz> well, depends on what the arrest was for
<NikNakFlak> knowledge
<Scones> My understanding, NikNak, of reasonable antag knowledge
<NikNakFlak> meson search is a bullshit reason but not bannable. Makes him a powergaming cunt, but not a rule breaker.
<Scones> has always been like, if you have it in hand you can know shit about it, but if someone is wearing mesons you shouldnt instantly think THOSE COULD BE THERMAL
<Scones> and then use that as grounds to search

If I wanted to use mesons as grounds to search you, I'd have done it far sooner than I did.

You were eventually searched for acting shifty as fuck, As I said sprinting into maint the split second any of us came near you, skulking around the same areas of maint and coming out of a room with a blood trail at the end.

Just to reiterate, you were not searched because you had mesons. That is stupid, your behavior got you searched not mesons. If it was Mesons I'd have taken them. I didn't even bother , I didn't even think about the mesons.
(Posting this now but will edit in the rest as I do each bit).

<NikNakFlak> Didnt you claim to be able to break out of perma scones?
<Scones> I said it was doable "if power was on and I had internals" of which there was VERY obviously neither
<NikNakFlak> Well I've broken out of perma without either
<NikNakFlak> :_: <Scones> comes into the unlit perma, opens door, i said AHGAHJGHAGHAG and he killed me
<NikNakFlak> but hmm <leibniz> he says he thought the mesons were stolen, which is retarded, not because they were thermals
<NikNakFlak> So he's being a lying shit but due to the nature of the lie
<NikNakFlak> It's really unprovable
<Scones> Stickymayhem you should probably weigh in on the Tornadium thread because I know you have some thoughts on him
<NikNakFlak> I keep my distance
<NikNakFlak> but the ban is a large grey area <hotelbravolima> it's almost like we have a rule for this
<NikNakFlak> I've had to deal with one of his 10 year supportbus things
<hotelbravolima> eh nvm
<Scones> I mean he outright lied in PMs
<hotelbravolima> >players want more judgement calls
<Scones> and still isn't permabanned
<Scones> so
<hotelbravolima> >admins you must cite specific rules to remove shit people for being shit
<NikNakFlak> how did he outright lie?
<Scones> he said i attacked him in perma
<hotelbravolima> >if you cannot cite sufficient casus beli you aren't allowed to, you must continue to tolerate shit
<Scones> i opened a door and said AHGGHAGHA to which he shot me six times and batoned me until I was dead
<hotelbravolima> >also stop having all these foolish rules <leibniz> did you slip him
<Scones> in PMs he claimed I disarmed him
<NikNakFlak> You attacked his ears with your awful splurgy voice
<Scones> leibniz if I slipped him I would have killed him and greentexted and laughed a lot
<Scones> but i did not slip him nor did i make an attempt to do so
<leibniz> " he tries to slip me with the soap."
<NikNakFlak> did you have the soap
<Scones> the soap that never moved from its spawn point, although thats unprovable i guess
<Scones> nope
<NikNakFlak> unprovable yep
<Scones> yeah
<Scones> and then he killed me because "I didnt have restraints"
<NikNakFlak> whos fault is that?
<NikNakFlak> why did he even come back?
<Scones> why was he in perma with like 30 seconds til the shuttle docked if not for a prisoner transfer
<leibniz> even disarm attempts log in the combat log
<leibniz> that fail

First thing, I believe you only said "I just realized it's so easy to break out of this perma". I didn't hear anything about power. Petty I know but eh.

As I said prior, Why on earth would I not take thermals if in your mind I knew they were Thermals. Scones admitted to having the thermals, do you not think if they were such a big factor in my "murderboner" for valids I'd have taken them?

You tried to shove me into the soap, You failed and slipped on it. You even admit you would have killed me and green texted so please don't act like you had no intention of attacking me.

I had no cuffs left at the time, I had cuffs for the majority of the round. In that particular instance I was a little pressed for time and concerned that I couldn't see the second prisoner in his cell. I assumed that they had infact broken out as Scones boasted he could and I went to investigate.

<leibniz> i dont see disarm mentioned in the FNR thread regarding you
<leibniz> like, I dont see the claim
<leibniz> maybe it was in PMs
<Scones> he said it in the initial PMs
<NikNakFlak> and no one has bothered to pull logs
<Scones> amazingly
<NikNakFlak> logs the lord and savior of all things
<NikNakFlak> MY DOMAIN
<Scones> i mean i think in the end he did some really shitty stuff and he is really consistently shit
<Scones> contributing 0 to a department that def does not need more bad rep
<Scones> anyways im posting in the thread now
<Scones> also just stuff like
<leibniz> well its not like the prosecution did a good job in the thread
<Scones> >constantly shitting supportbus
<Scones> >makes a thread PRIOR to being banned
<NikNakFlak> If he lied in the PMs, he might get blown the fuck out, however the grey area with the antag items and how much is he allowed to know, etc.
<Scones> NikNakFlak see if you can find the part where he said disarm <Scones> 90% certain he did

Okay so, Did you ever find the part where I claimed you disarmed me? If I said that it was a complete lie, I'll put my hands up and say you didn't try to disarm me. You tried to slip me.

What did I do consistently shit that round hmm?

I was the only fucking person from the department who turned up to calls for assistance in a reasonable time. Hell the first dude I caught was sheer dumb luck with people in the bar hearing the violence and gibbing. The second person I caught was because someone shouted for help. The only "grey area" here is you. I don't contribute to the department by doing the job that security was failing spectacularly at doing that round?

I was already told I was getting banned, That wasn't going to change so I made the thread in advance so I could start setting the appeal up. I don't see the issue.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you really did never take his mesons, I'd like to report Scones for lying in a FNR thread. (He claimed you immediately stripped them first when you arrested him, to check for thermals)

[NikNakFlak]

<NikNakFlak> scones
<Scones> yessir
<NikNakFlak> he stripped off the mesons first
<NikNakFlak> did he put them on
<NikNakFlak> to check
<Scones> dont remember
<NikNakFlak> fantasticccc!

[Tornadium]

<NikNakFlak> scones
<Scones> yessir
<NikNakFlak> he stripped off the mesons first
<NikNakFlak> did he put them on
<NikNakFlak> to check
<Scones> dont remember
<NikNakFlak> fantasticccc!

Can you do me a favour and check the logs and see if

Osborn Auman attempts to remove Mesons occurred?

As far as I can recall the only things I tried to remove from you originally was the backpack and your pockets. I would have had to take the gas mask off first to get to the mesons right? I don't recall doing that either.

Like I don't get it, He claims I removed them and checked for Thermals. Earlier he says he had thermals in Perma. Why would I take them and put them back on?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

<NikNakFlak> scones
<Scones> yessir
<NikNakFlak> he stripped off the mesons first
<NikNakFlak> did he put them on
<NikNakFlak> to check
<Scones> dont remember
<NikNakFlak> fantasticccc!

If your empty quote is implying what I think it's meant to, then you're saying you pulled logs and found he stripped mesons first. Which means that Tornadium would be lying in his own ban request, and therefore in Big Trouble(tm)

[Tornadium]

Log Dump Part 2

<NikNakFlak> [00:55:32]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)/Tornadium : You don't ened mag boots
<NikNakFlak> [00:56:24]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)/Tornadium : Leave the magboot
<NikNakFlak> Lets someone go into EVA but demands they leave the magboots
<NikNakFlak> yea ok

I was walking by, I saw him smashing the glass.

I stopped him, uncuffed him and let him go. I didn't hang around to even ensure he didn't start doing it again.

If I'm as powergamer as you guys are trying to imply then surely I would have either taken the magboots or just stood there or at least gotten EVA closed??

<NikNakFlak> There are not voice logs of tornadium talking to you after the original incident
<NikNakFlak> he saw the mesons, and asked where you got them
<NikNakFlak> and you went on your way
<NikNakFlak> later, no words
<tedward1337> ? <NikNakFlak> just a stun arrrest

His constant attempts to bolt away from me for the majority of the round screamed "I have something to hide".

Like literally as soon as I saw him he turned and ran the other way.

<NikNakFlak> Does the server log failed PDA attempts
<NikNakFlak> Failed PDA usage attempts such as a message not going through
<leibniz> i dont know
<Scones> NikNakFlak I was wondering that because uh
<Scones> he was like "no response"
<Scones> and iw as curious how he was contacting them
<Scones> comms down usually means pda down as well
<NikNakFlak> It doesn't
<NikNakFlak> So this claim: [01:00:19]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)/Tornadium : The HoS isn't reponding
<NikNakFlak> Is "true" but terrible misleadingd"
<NikNakFlak> [01:00:32]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu (as Osborn Auman)/Tornadium : By PDA i mean
<NikNakFlak> Server not responding does not mean they aren't responding
<NikNakFlak> It means they cant respond
<NikNakFlak> [01:02:33]SAY: Y0SH1_M4S73R/(C.O.O.K.I.E.) : Clown set the turrets to lethal, and they broke the consoles.
<NikNakFlak> [01:07:07]PDA: Phoebe Lotsu (PDA: PDA-Osborn Auman (Detective)) sent "I think the clown locked down the perma wing, can you open it?" to PDA-Millian MacTavish (Patrol Officer)
<NikNakFlak> [01:10:20]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu/Scones : It's so easy to escape from this perma
<NikNakFlak> [01:10:31]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu/Scones : I can't because it's depowered
<NikNakFlak> [01:10:34]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu/Scones : If there was power <NikNakFlak> [01:10:36]SAY: Phoebe Lotsu/Scones : Easy peasy
<Scones> And there was never power

Okay so on to this part, I missed the part about the power as I said above. Just to hold my hands up there and say I didn't see it.

As for the PDA bit, I believe I sent a message to the Captain and to the HoS. Both of those went through, I attempted again to send another and I did get the PDA Server offline message.

I also went to the intercomm and requested their presence at the brig. Check the logs for that, shortly after. No one showed or responded over the intercomm.

[Tornadium]

<NikNakFlak> scones
<Scones> yessir
<NikNakFlak> he stripped off the mesons first
<NikNakFlak> did he put them on
<NikNakFlak> to check
<Scones> dont remember
<NikNakFlak> fantasticccc!

If your empty quote is implying what I think it's meant to, then you're saying you pulled logs and found he stripped mesons first. Which means that Tornadium would be lying in his own ban request, and therefore in Big Trouble(tm)

The arrest was made inside the Crew Quarter near cabins. If I recall correctly all I did at that time was check his pockets and his backpack and found 3 EMP Grenades and an Energy Sword. I do not recall taking his Mesons. If anything I would have just taken the backpack and dragged him to the brig fully clothed as I did the other 3.

Edit: I can't find the logs for the day in question on the public log page, Can someone direct me to it so I can find this?

[NikNakFlak]

PDA messages log if they go through and there are no PDA messages from anyone between you except for Millian.
It means, they didn't go through.

[Tornadium]

PDA messages log if they go through and there are no PDA messages from anyone between you except for Millian.
It means, they didn't go through.

Then it is possible I missed the server error message the first two times. Hence why I went to the intercomm. Does the error come up in red or black text?

Did you see the other section of my post?

Do you have the logs for me stripping Scones? I believe that all I took when we made the arrest was his backpack and emptying his pockets.

If I specifically took the mesons first (I don't think thats possible because of him wearing a gasmask) then how did they get back on him before perma?

[NikNakFlak]

One moment

[Tornadium]

One moment

Thank you, By Scones own admission he had those thermals in Permabrig.

I don't get how I would have removed them first (I didn't), then put them back on him before he got into perma.

[NikNakFlak]

<NikNakFlak> [01:06:13]ATTACK: Lanny McShain (as Adam Pryex)(jud1c470r) stripped Caroline Prevatt(scones) of Optical Meson Scanner (NEWHP: 100)
<NikNakFlak> and him getting it back
<NikNakFlak> [01:08:56]ATTACK: Lanny McShain (as Adam Pryex)(jud1c470r) hit Phoebe Lotsu(scones) with Optical Meson Scanner (NEWHP: 100)

[Tornadium]

<NikNakFlak> [01:06:13]ATTACK: Lanny McShain (as Adam Pryex)(jud1c470r) stripped Caroline Prevatt(scones) of Optical Meson Scanner (NEWHP: 100)
<NikNakFlak> and him getting it back
<NikNakFlak> [01:08:56]ATTACK: Lanny McShain (as Adam Pryex)(jud1c470r) hit Phoebe Lotsu(scones) with Optical Meson Scanner (NEWHP: 100)

Thanks NikNak I appreciate you looking that up.

[onleavedontatme]

Was resolved after IRC discussion with everyone involved/more digging through logs. If someone has an overwhelming desire for the exact details they can PM me and I'll write it up later but I gotta go to bed now. As to the mesons thing it was another officer who both took them and gave them back.

Ban was lifted and Tornadium has agreed to tone down the ban request (not spanning a dozen threads or hours in supportbus).

[Saegrimr]

Well i'm glad this is over.