Killing antags peanut thread

[Shadowflame909]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31807

If your too good at your job you turn the round into extended

Weak little heretic didnt deserve this

[Boot]

You wouldnt shove someone to the floor and beat them to death with a toolbox if they are hacking into tool storage

To be clear here I have death matched greys for hacking into Cargo/Medical. If I ask you not to hack into my department and refuse to leave then one of us is going to be horizontal at the end of it.

[san7890]

You wouldnt shove someone to the floor and beat them to death with a toolbox if they are hacking into tool storage

To be clear here I have death matched greys for hacking into Cargo/Medical. If I ask you not to hack into my department and refuse to leave then one of us is going to be horizontal at the end of it.

That is fair i presume

[BONERMASTER]

yeah desworders getting bludgeoned to death by everyone in the room is natural but I wish we were more MRP when it comes to situations where someone is trying to figure out whether someone is an antag or not. do we really need to check the shoes for hidden weapons? check for implants? I watched a clown get murdered for being a "heretic" and he was unable to fight back and did not use any abilities as he was shotgunned and beat to death by a shaft miner larping as sec. the detective decided to drag his corpse to med and had his heart replaced to ensure he wasnt a heretic.

I think my point is that the game would be more fun if people tried to do escalation with antags as they do with nonantags. You wouldnt shove someone to the floor and beat them to death with a toolbox if they are hacking into tool storage, so why should you do so if you see them use an airlock card on it? Because they are the bad guy? When the traitor whips out their esword to try and take you out as a witness, that should be your green light to beat them to death however you see fit.

I love how we are reinventing civilization at this point.

Oh, there is a sussie, and there is no telling if it's true or not?
-> Detain them, bring them to a trial, and weigh the evidence for and against them, then make a fair judgement based on it.


Wow!


With pioneering regards
-BONERMASTER

[sinfulbliss]

Relevant headmin ruling on policy thread "Rule 12 and Security": viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31248

2) Is security allowed to execute captured antagonists who are at high risk for posing a future threat (e.g., .357 in bag, cult dagger, heretic focus, etc.), but who otherwise have not committed any crimes?

2. Yes. Rule 12 is not RP rule 6 + Rule 4. "Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists"

[Scriptis]

Relevant policy thread "Rule 12 and Security": viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31248

...

That's not what the note is for.

As I said in both the ticket and the appeal, the situation with the heretic was not rule-breaking. I was missing information when I ahelped you, and told you this once I realized my mistake. I made the note because of your history as security, and not because of the heretic.

Under these grounds, anybody who has read the logs of any of Zyb's shifts would argue the note should stay.

edit: I understand why my second post on the appeal got deleted, but I really, truly, honestly think that if you asked Zyb to provide logs of him actually creating a fun roleplaying experience with other players that he couldn't fucking do it

[sinfulbliss]

Relevant policy thread "Rule 12 and Security": viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31248

...

That's not what the note is for.

As I said in both the ticket and the appeal, the situation with the heretic was not rule-breaking. I was missing information when I ahelped you, and told you this once I realized my mistake. I made the note because of your history as security, and not because of the heretic.

Under these grounds, anybody who has read the logs of any of Zyb's shifts would argue the note should stay.

Zyb executes a heretic, is bwoinked for executing the heretic, and then once this is deemed valid, noted post hoc for their past history of validhunting. To say that executing the heretic had nothing to do with the note only makes sense in the absolute strictest possible interpretation. If he hadn't executed the heretic he wouldn't have been noted.

If Zyb's playstyle itself breaks rule 12, there are other ways to go about giving them such a note than when they execute a heretic. Just wait for a round when they're batonning and bagsearching every person that breathes on a maint door, harassing nonantags, etc., then note them for this:

1) Is security allowed to spend their round validhunting for antagonists and antagonist activity, despite there being no active threats on the station?

1. It depends on what "validhunting" means here, but ultimately--if you aren't playing to win and aren't ruining someone else's experience, you will be fine. This likely needs a more specific case, but walking around maintenance and such as security is fine. Do remember that security is the job designated to protect the station and enforce order, not a job designed to exclusively attack antagonists.

Clearly there is consensus in the community that Zyb is ruining people's experiences through his lack of RP and mute playstyle. It should be easy enough then to find an instance of this and note for it there as opposed to during a completely valid action of executing a heretic with a compromised permabrig.

[blackdav123]

-snip-

Zyb plays random name so it is very hard for any crewmembers to report consistent bad faith play so the only way to document these sorts of things is through notes. The other benefit of doing it through notes is that the person receiving them can understand what they did was wrong and to change it before it becomes a ban.

[Annihilite111]

even i have a hard time restraining heretics as a pacifist, they could jaunt everywhere

Literally just take their focus. They've needed it to jaunt since the rework

I haven't seen any heretice since the update, I just ctrl-f jaunt on the heretic page to check if it still existed

Understandable. As of the rework a heretic needs a special item equipped to cast any spells aside from funny hand. What this means in practice is that once you have one in a cell and stripped, only the rust path heretic can break out. If your heretic is one of the other now four paths, they're shit out of luck and as helpless as any guy in gay baby jail.

Once they ascend all bets are off of course. Ascended heretics are living focuses themselves and do not need an object to channel their eldritch patron. If you happen to encounter one you either shoot them with everything you got or pray that they leave you alone.

[Rageguy505]

even i have a hard time restraining heretics as a pacifist, they could jaunt everywhere

Literally just take their focus. They've needed it to jaunt since the rework

I haven't seen any heretice since the update, I just ctrl-f jaunt on the heretic page to check if it still existed

Understandable. As of the rework a heretic needs a special item equipped to cast any spells aside from funny hand. What this means in practice is that once you have one in a cell and stripped, only the rust path heretic can break out. If your heretic is one of the other now four paths, they're shit out of luck and as helpless as any guy in gay baby jail.

Once they ascend all bets are off of course. Ascended heretics are living focuses themselves and do not need an object to channel their eldritch patron. If you happen to encounter one you either shoot them with everything you got or pray that they leave you alone.

yeah but arresting and cuffing a ascending heretic and putting him in the shuttle brig would be really funny

[Annihilite111]

even i have a hard time restraining heretics as a pacifist, they could jaunt everywhere

Literally just take their focus. They've needed it to jaunt since the rework

I haven't seen any heretice since the update, I just ctrl-f jaunt on the heretic page to check if it still existed

Understandable. As of the rework a heretic needs a special item equipped to cast any spells aside from funny hand. What this means in practice is that once you have one in a cell and stripped, only the rust path heretic can break out. If your heretic is one of the other now four paths, they're shit out of luck and as helpless as any guy in gay baby jail.

Once they ascend all bets are off of course. Ascended heretics are living focuses themselves and do not need an object to channel their eldritch patron. If you happen to encounter one you either shoot them with everything you got or pray that they leave you alone.

yeah but arresting and cuffing a ascending heretic and putting him in the shuttle brig would be really funny

If he already ascended he'd just jaunt out or use his many spells to kill you.

[Indie-ana Jones]

I don't think he's a good egg but I disagree with using this specific instance to pin this note to him. I don't think he did anything wrong in this instance and it would have been better to stick the note to him when he was doing an actual rulebreak. That being said, the note doesn't reference the actual event which caused him to get noted and the note is accurate otherwise, but on the other hand the note wouldn't have been applied here if he didn't kill the heretic. So ultimately, I think he deserves it, I just don't think this was the straw that should have broke the camel's back.

[BONERMASTER]

I mean, analyzing say logs is fine and all, but maybe you're getting a bit too hung up about the number and percentages of words. That's still LRP security we're talking about here, and if they don't want to talk a whole lot to feral animals pretending to be crewmembers on a space station, then that's just fair. Putting the noose around someone for not talking enough is pushing it in my eyes.


With gossiping regards
-BONERMASTER

[Rohen_Tahir]

even i have a hard time restraining heretics as a pacifist, they could jaunt everywhere

Literally just take their focus. They've needed it to jaunt since the rework

I haven't seen any heretice since the update, I just ctrl-f jaunt on the heretic page to check if it still existed

Understandable. As of the rework a heretic needs a special item equipped to cast any spells aside from funny hand. What this means in practice is that once you have one in a cell and stripped, only the rust path heretic can break out. If your heretic is one of the other now four paths, they're shit out of luck and as helpless as any guy in gay baby jail.

Once they ascend all bets are off of course. Ascended heretics are living focuses themselves and do not need an object to channel their eldritch patron. If you happen to encounter one you either shoot them with everything you got or pray that they leave you alone.

yeah but arresting and cuffing a ascending heretic and putting him in the shuttle brig would be really funny

If he already ascended he'd just jaunt out or use his many spells to kill you.

[Rageguy505]

im cutting all the quotes

yeah but taking people in alive makes me feel better and i have the moral highground which matters a lot when people dont have any

[Agux909]

I mean, analyzing say logs is fine and all, but maybe you're getting a bit too hung up about the number and percentages of words. That's still LRP security we're talking about here, and if they don't want to talk a whole lot to feral animals pretending to be crewmembers on a space station, then that's just fair. Putting the noose around someone for not talking enough is pushing it in my eyes.


With gossiping regards
-BONERMASTER

Objection! Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

[BONERMASTER]

I mean, analyzing say logs is fine and all, but maybe you're getting a bit too hung up about the number and percentages of words. That's still LRP security we're talking about here, and if they don't want to talk a whole lot to feral animals pretending to be crewmembers on a space station, then that's just fair. Putting the noose around someone for not talking enough is pushing it in my eyes.


With gossiping regards
-BONERMASTER

Objection! Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

Sir, it is clear that your objection is intended to harass and annoy me as described under FRCP 30 (D) 3A:

Off Topic

(d) Duration; Sanction; Motion to Terminate or Limit.

(A) Grounds. At any time during a deposition, the deponent or a party may move to terminate or limit it on the ground that it is being conducted in bad faith or in a manner that unreasonably annoys, embarrasses, or oppresses the deponent or party. The motion may be filed in the court where the action is pending or the deposition is being taken. If the objecting deponent or party so demands, the deposition must be suspended for the time necessary to obtain an order.

therefore, I move for sanctions, motion to terminate the deposition at this moment AND will call the Special Master in advance to settle this matter accordingly.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER


(p.s. also object to form)

[Agux909]

I mean, analyzing say logs is fine and all, but maybe you're getting a bit too hung up about the number and percentages of words. That's still LRP security we're talking about here, and if they don't want to talk a whole lot to feral animals pretending to be crewmembers on a space station, then that's just fair. Putting the noose around someone for not talking enough is pushing it in my eyes.


With gossiping regards
-BONERMASTER

Objection! Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

Sir, it is clear that your objection is intended to harass and annoy me as described under FRCP 30 (D) 3A:

Off Topic

(d) Duration; Sanction; Motion to Terminate or Limit.

(A) Grounds. At any time during a deposition, the deponent or a party may move to terminate or limit it on the ground that it is being conducted in bad faith or in a manner that unreasonably annoys, embarrasses, or oppresses the deponent or party. The motion may be filed in the court where the action is pending or the deposition is being taken. If the objecting deponent or party so demands, the deposition must be suspended for the time necessary to obtain an order.

therefore, I move for sanctions, motion to terminate the deposition at this moment AND will call the Special Master in advance to settle this matter accordingly.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER


(p.s. also object to form)

With all due respect your honor, this notion of harrassment or annoyance is ridiculous. It's plainly obvious that MR. BONERMASTER is talking on behalf of unnamed, unknown and unquantified security officers, and pretends to know their thought process. This is speculation.

Their take on how SYBIL officers behave on a regular basis, given their lack of experience and familiarity on that environment is also unfounded; this can be backed up by Exhibit B, page 69. No foundation for these speculations, simple.

As per the object to form, I kept my objections short and concise! Your honor, this man is trying to justify the behavior in question from out of thin air!

[BONERMASTER]

I mean, analyzing say logs is fine and all, but maybe you're getting a bit too hung up about the number and percentages of words. That's still LRP security we're talking about here, and if they don't want to talk a whole lot to feral animals pretending to be crewmembers on a space station, then that's just fair. Putting the noose around someone for not talking enough is pushing it in my eyes.


With gossiping regards
-BONERMASTER

Objection! Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

Sir, it is clear that your objection is intended to harass and annoy me as described under FRCP 30 (D) 3A:

Off Topic

(d) Duration; Sanction; Motion to Terminate or Limit.

(A) Grounds. At any time during a deposition, the deponent or a party may move to terminate or limit it on the ground that it is being conducted in bad faith or in a manner that unreasonably annoys, embarrasses, or oppresses the deponent or party. The motion may be filed in the court where the action is pending or the deposition is being taken. If the objecting deponent or party so demands, the deposition must be suspended for the time necessary to obtain an order.

therefore, I move for sanctions, motion to terminate the deposition at this moment AND will call the Special Master in advance to settle this matter accordingly.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER


(p.s. also object to form)

With all due respect your honor, this notion of harrassment or annoyance is ridiculous. It's plainly obvious that MR. BONERMASTER is talking on behalf of unnamed, unknown and unquantified security officers, and pretends to know their thought process. This is speculation.

Their take on how SYBIL officers behave on a regular basis, given their lack of experience and familiarity on that environment is also unfounded; this can be backed up by Exhibit B, page 69. No foundation for these speculations, simple.

As per the object to form, I kept my objections short and concise! Your honor, this man is trying to justify the behavior in question from out of thin air!

I have an objection to exhibit B being taken into evidence, because it is entirely based on hearsay.
There is no way to be sure that the statistics gathered from this supposed data-site are true and accurate, and there are many technical oversights that are visible to a layman even, for example, the entire campbell server missing. I think it is in fact, madness, to trust a website that claims to gather statistics for all servers, which then selectively picks what server it wants to generates logs for.

Even the page itself warns you of it's massive inaccuracies, if I may present exhibit E 51 to you:

► Show Spoiler

I have in fact many thousands of hours on the sybil server, an extensive knowledge of security and their procedures, their workplace, their mentality. Don't believe the foul tricks of the plaintiff here saying "oh, you don't have any hours on sybil!", they're using a shoddy website that doesn't even cover all of it's servers, just to discredit an accomplished expert in the field, and you know why? Because they know the truth, and they don't want you to hear it!

For this reason, exhibit B, under the rules of evidence, is not permissable, and it must be retracted. My statements still stand, and I will still continue to move for sanctions for harassment and being annoying.


With honest regards
-BONERMASTER

[Agux909]

[toemas]

brick do me do me )

[Itseasytosee2me]

Me too!

[Scriptis]

i am out and about for memorial day weekend so your indices will have to wait until monday afternoon

spoiler: they're better than zyb's
double spoiler: zyb has (almost definitely) now said more in his note appeal than he has in-game for the past month (if anyone wants to compute an exact factor while i'm away i would love to see it)
triple spoiler: if the double spoiler isn't true (back-of-the-hand math says it might, in some universe, not be true) also factor in his other rules-lawyering on the forums from the past month

[Scriptis]

thank you timberpoes for asking the question i wanted to ask

[toemas]

ITS THURSDAY.

[toemas]

GET TO WORK SLAVE

[Omega_DarkPotato]

literally incapable of interacting with people for five minutes outside of killing antags as secoff

[Annihilite111]

literally incapable of interacting with people for five minutes outside of killing antags as secoff

Do you think we could program a validhunter NPC to replace him? Maybe if we fed it his combat data.

[BONERMASTER]

literally incapable of interacting with people for five minutes outside of killing antags as secoff

Do you think we could program a validhunter NPC to replace him? Maybe if we fed it his combat data.

The survival instinct is not to be carelessly neglected.
We must introduce additional parameters.
The machine must be taught fear. It must be taught love. It must be taught anger.

Only then, the machine may perform to it's ... optimal ... efficency.


With calculated regards
-BONERMASTER

[Pandarsenic]

I really wish he'd just be like "yeah, good wake-up call," and start RPing instead of being a VALIDS machine.

I also want someone to send me their old PS4 so I can finally play its exclusives

[technokek]

He just keep digging the hole.... Has he not considered that the note he received might be the "admin action" he is talking about?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I really wish he'd just be like "yeah, good wake-up call," and start RPing instead of being a VALIDS machine.

I also want someone to send me their old PS4 so I can finally play its exclusives

Must play of the PS4 generation was Ghost of Tsushima, look into it if it ever happens.

[RaveRadbury]

Every time I see the appeal update I know I'm in for a good chuckle.

I rest my case.

What do you think guys, has he actually rested his case? Will this be his last post in the appeal? I look forward to the thrilling conclusion.

[Nabski]

On one hand Zybwivcz seems to be a shitty anti-fun addition to the server.
On the other Coffee admin style always got under my nerves and is on full display here. Even from the first PM you can see that they have already made up their mind on how this is going to go. It's not much "have a conversation" and more "I'm telling you how this is".

► Show Spoiler

I admit that I absolutely have a chip on my block about them and if I saw them in adminwho I would just leave, which caused me to go on a break until they retired as an admin. I'm just happy they aren't on the same server as me anymore.
The only other admin I would consider doing this with is Vekter, but Vekter also responds to off hour tickets/no admin online pings so I respect them so much more for it and think they just have an bad rap. No actual negative experiences there just the vibe.

[Fikou]

scriptis give me my zyb counter
nabski youre a nerd

[Nabski]

Yeah :/

[Zybwivcz]

Every time I see the appeal update I know I'm in for a good chuckle.

I rest my case.

What do you think guys, has he actually rested his case? Will this be his last post in the appeal? I look forward to the thrilling conclusion.

I only stopped posting because they made me.

[Scriptis]

I only stopped posting because they made me.

still holding out for you to demonstrate that you've roleplayed for more than five minutes in the past year

[massa]

Relevant headmin ruling on policy thread "Rule 12 and Security": viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31248

2) Is security allowed to execute captured antagonists who are at high risk for posing a future threat (e.g., .357 in bag, cult dagger, heretic focus, etc.), but who otherwise have not committed any crimes?

2. Yes. Rule 12 is not RP rule 6 + Rule 4. "Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists"

Relevant thinking human ruling (much more meaningful and relevant than the headmin ruling):
If you're replacing people's hearts, searching shoes, stripping every item checking for chameleons for minor crimes like hacking doors, you're a fucking freak and ruining the fucking game playing cold TDM.

Your rigid adherence to the precise wording of rules, where you chuck out all notion of decency or rational human behavior, is very often a bad look, Mr. Brady.

[Mothblocks]

I'm still pretty steadfast that 99% of people who are worried about rule 12 follow it fine. There's still something to be said about that 1%

[oranges]

Every time I see the appeal update I know I'm in for a good chuckle.

I rest my case.

What do you think guys, has he actually rested his case? Will this be his last post in the appeal? I look forward to the thrilling conclusion.

I only stopped posting because they made me.

the case against you builds