Streaming and rule 3?

[Rustledjimm]

So we recently had a streamer on bagil who was obviously quite disappointed when he was informed that he could not stream without a significant delay which would end user interaction, the entire point of streaming.

So I would like to get opinions on this as we have no real policy at this moment in time on it, it's more of a placeholder "delay by X minutes" policy.

[Shaps-cloud]

I would like to personally apologize to all 3 people in the world who are sad enough to unironically want to watch an SS13 stream

[Arianya]

can i stream my forums experience

how much delay do i need

[Shaps-cloud]

I can put up an alternative stream of me doing some data processing in Microsoft Excel for all those affected, I think that would be a suitable substitute for the thrill of watching someone play an entire hour long round of SS13

[Naksu]

I actually started playing after watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p2V3R84viI and talking to feem about ss13

[Ispiria]

I'm a big fan of streaming privately for a handful of my closest friends, and regularly stream League/Overwatch/Rimworld/DS3 while two or three of my friends watch. It's always a lot of fun for us, and if I'm playing a game where choice is a thing, they'll help me make decisions in what I build or how I play and it becomes a team effort in a singleplayer game. It's a great time and something I'd encourage everyone to try sometime.

All that said, streaming SS13 is an entirely different beast. With the length of our rounds, and the length of time that acts taken by players can have an effect, there's no safe or reliable way to establish a stream delay that would both protect the integrity of the round and also allow the streamer's audience to engage with the stream. A streamer who was serious about simply wanting to play for fun and have a few people watch them at it would still run the hazard of leaking round-essential information to viewers who were also actively playing in that round, and while a certain level of meta-knowledge is expected to be learned and subsequently ignored by our players (cloning is a thing and the ghosts know all), streaming only serves to add another source of potentially exploitable information. In this instance it's even worse, because anonymously anyone can tune into a stream and then act on what they've learned with virtually no way for us to be sure that's what they've done.

This is all excluding the obvious risk of people deliberately streaming for the sake of being metagamed with/for/around/because of, and I don't want to name any names, but I can think of a goodly number of people who would say "BUT THE RUELS SAED I WAS ALOWED 2 STREM IT SINT MY FUALT THEY METAD". That's a whole can of worms that would be opened by allowing streaming which should really be welded shut and thrown into the deepest, most abandoned well we can find.

Now, streaming could possibly be permitted, given very specific circumstances, and exclusively with admin-granted permission and supervision. For example, the upcoming ball in a few hours could be streamed, maybe even by an admin, so people unable to attend due to bad connections or busy schedules could tune in to participate in a small way. In cases like this, with very strict handling, streaming could be a useful thing. Otherwise it's just too prone to abuse and too unnecessary to be allowed as a regular practice.

[Dax Dupont]

Streaming is bad for it results in metacomms where we ban people for.

HOWEVER, in the past we've allowed streams for charity and as long as a streamer does something for charity we could allow it once in a while imo. It should be announced to all players that this is happening and that we're temporarily suspending the rule in favor for a charity event that lasts a few hours.

Non charity/non-previous agreed streams? No, go away. Record a round and upload it after.

[Wyzack]

I'd probably do Extra Life again, raised like 400 bucks for children's hospitals

[RogueSteampunker]

I mean, the steamer themselve doesn't get any major benefit from streaming, and anyone who tries to peek a stream for benefits could be ahelped regarding it. Granted, that's assuming everything goes as well as it should (which it won't) but I think we need to consider the lack of demand for people wanting to stream, and how we can use that, such as by dedicating a volunteering admin or two to watch for signs of stream-peeking, and avoiding having any mention of a stream going on in OOC.

But once again, it's a big topic that, for it to work, would require a bit of initiative and work between the streaming parties and the admin team, and whether or not that's worth it to see content that isn't just from the same four tubers who make edited content that doesn't make you wanna stab your eyes out is different from person to person.

[TribeOfBeavers]

The problem I have with it is that watching the stream for info is largely undetectable if they're smart about it and takes no effort at all while still providing a lot of valuable information.

If someone metagames using a friend or another computer with ban evasion stuff they have to put at least a bit of effort/coordination in, which would turn off most random people from doing it. With a stream you literially just open a webpage and there it is.

You can get a lot of info about the round by seeing someone else's perspective. Antags (especially conversion ones) get revealed pretty quick, department channels can be seen, can easily tell where certain people/items are, etc.

Personally, I don't think it's worth it. If they want to stream they can host their own server with their viewers so at least everybody there would be on board with it. It's not really fair to people who have no idea this person is streaming to have their round ruined because someone saw them kill/convert/whatever someone on stream or because they happened to be on an ops team with the streamer and now everybody watching knows the roundtype/how to prepare.

[ShadowDimentio]

Just let people stream, metacomming and metagaming is already bannable.

[imblyings]

Inform admins, admins advise when they can be online to supervise and watch for metacomms, admins also inform players.

Publicity isnt a bad thing.

[Dax Dupont]

Just let people stream, metacomming and metagaming is already bannable.

Streaming is metacomms.

[ohnopigeons]

Streaming is metacomms.

In technicality, not in spirit.

[Armhulen]

Streaming is metacomms.

In technicality, not in spirit.

not even in technicality, unless people act on the stream. metacomms becomes metacomms when people use info they know

[Dax Dupont]

Streaming is metacomms.

In technicality, not in spirit.

not even in technicality, unless people act on the stream. metacomms becomes metacomms when people use info they know

Isn't that the metagaming part?

[Armhulen]

Streaming is metacomms.

In technicality, not in spirit.

not even in technicality, unless people act on the stream. metacomms becomes metacomms when people use info they know

Isn't that the metagaming part?

when there are ways to do it that are much easier and with way less risk and completely 100% without good intention then why would they stream to do it

[Dax Dupont]

Streaming is metacomms.

In technicality, not in spirit.

not even in technicality, unless people act on the stream. metacomms becomes metacomms when people use info they know

Isn't that the metagaming part?

when there are ways to do it that are much easier and with way less risk and completely 100% without good intention then why would they stream to do it

It's more about other people using this information to try and seek justification for arresting/killing an antag. It's extremely hard to prove if done right.

Also why do streamers stream? A lot of them make money by streaming. I have at least two friends who make serious cash by streaming.

[Grazyn]

POGGERS

Seriously though, the streamer himself should be the first one to want to put up a delay, or stream snipers are guaranteed to fuck up his round.

I don't think we should oppose twitch streaming in principle because it is a good way to help ss13 and tgstation especially reach the wider audience it deserves.

[Armhulen]

nobody is making money off of streaming ss13

[Grazyn]

There are variety streamers who make money off streaming random games, even more or less obscure ones like ss13. They don't stream ss13 full time. A big name eventually streaming ss13 was bound to happen, it was just a question of when.

[BeeSting12]

Let people do it. It doesnt benefit the streamer and can even be harmful to them. We shouldnt add stream sniping bans either imo unless its blatantly obvious. Its essentially one way metacomms that doesnt benefit the streamer

[Jzoid]

Let people do it. It doesnt benefit the streamer and can even be harmful to them. We shouldnt add stream sniping bans either imo unless its blatantly obvious. Its essentially one way metacomms that doesnt benefit the streamer

the only way it benefits the streamer is say he's being kidnapped, viewers could then come save them

if that's the case, it's easily traceable and bannable. something admins can do is keep the stream on their other monitor (if they have one), or keep the audio running in the back ground.

let it happen tho.

[EagleWiz]

For the streamer there isnt much obvious benefit, but for anyone watching you can see what the round type is quick, identify antags on the streamers team, identify antags who killed the streamer, recover the corpse, etc. And most of the things someone could do with the meta knowledge of the stream are not immediately obvious, so realistically they would get away with it. Yeah, you might be able to catch someone using the stream when they say its nuke ops before any ops even show up, or start attacking a random guy who just happens to be antag, but good luck banning someone for just happening to avoid the borgs (that he knows are emaged from the stream) or just happening to wander across an abandoned cult base or a corpse in a locker.

[Archie700]

Might I add that there is no clear number to "x minutes before" because the streamer can be a ghost and reveal which people are antagonists.

The only time you can safely stream a round without fear of metagaming is if the same round has already ended by the time you start the stream.

[Dax Dupont]

For the streamer there isnt much obvious benefit, but for anyone watching you can see what the round type is quick, identify antags on the streamers team, identify antags who killed the streamer, recover the corpse, etc. And most of the things someone could do with the meta knowledge of the stream are not immediately obvious, so realistically they would get away with it. Yeah, you might be able to catch someone using the stream when they say its nuke ops before any ops even show up, or start attacking a random guy who just happens to be antag, but good luck banning someone for just happening to avoid the borgs (that he knows are emaged from the stream) or just happening to wander across an abandoned cult base or a corpse in a locker.

This^

[Grazyn]

allowing streamers would cause small amounts of unnoticeable low-key metacomming but will bring much more benefits in the long run, I'd say it's worth it

[Armhulen]

For the streamer there isnt much obvious benefit, but for anyone watching you can see what the round type is quick, identify antags on the streamers team, identify antags who killed the streamer, recover the corpse, etc. And most of the things someone could do with the meta knowledge of the stream are not immediately obvious, so realistically they would get away with it. Yeah, you might be able to catch someone using the stream when they say its nuke ops before any ops even show up, or start attacking a random guy who just happens to be antag, but good luck banning someone for just happening to avoid the borgs (that he knows are emaged from the stream) or just happening to wander across an abandoned cult base or a corpse in a locker.

This^

people can already do this with skype/discord/any other service that lets you talk to people over the internet without broadcasting half of their meta stuff with admins?

[RandomMarine]

allowing streamers would cause small amounts of unnoticeable low-key metacomming but will bring much more benefits in the long run, I'd say it's worth it

Please explain these so-called benefits of exposing SS13 to twitch viewers.

[Iatots]

>people THIS desperate for a playerbase

[TribeOfBeavers]

For the streamer there isnt much obvious benefit, but for anyone watching you can see what the round type is quick, identify antags on the streamers team, identify antags who killed the streamer, recover the corpse, etc. And most of the things someone could do with the meta knowledge of the stream are not immediately obvious, so realistically they would get away with it. Yeah, you might be able to catch someone using the stream when they say its nuke ops before any ops even show up, or start attacking a random guy who just happens to be antag, but good luck banning someone for just happening to avoid the borgs (that he knows are emaged from the stream) or just happening to wander across an abandoned cult base or a corpse in a locker.

This^

people can already do this with skype/discord/any other service that lets you talk to people over the internet without broadcasting half of their meta stuff with admins?

That requires a second person and coordination to accomplish. It's much more difficult to organize that than to open a stream. It is also against the rules so i don't know why you're bringing it up. Whataboutism isn't particularly helpful to discussions. Just because a bucket has a leak it doesn't mean we should drill more holes in it.

In my opinion streams just aren't worth the hassle of constantly having to monitor them and try to catch someone using the information to cheat (which is difficult at the best of times). Our population has been just fine without streamers "advertising" in the past, and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

[Grazyn]

allowing streamers would cause small amounts of unnoticeable low-key metacomming but will bring much more benefits in the long run, I'd say it's worth it

Please explain these so-called benefits of exposing SS13 to twitch viewers.

More players. As simple as that. Right now we have a server which tops at 10 players, we have room to spare. More players mean more jobs filled, fresh interactions, more potential coders and admins. And more money for the patreon, better server equipment, all in all a whole load of benefits. And who knows, with a critical mass we could even reach the final push needed for the infamous ss13 remake, and we could finally break free from the shackles of Byond. But to do that, ss13 needs to raise above the current "niche game" status into the mainstream club, and Twitch is the first step to achieve that.

[RandomMarine]

More players. As simple as that. Right now we have a server which tops at 10 players, we have room to spare. More players mean more jobs filled, fresh interactions, more potential coders and admins. And more money for the patreon, better server equipment, all in all a whole load of benefits. And who knows, with a critical mass we could even reach the final push needed for the infamous ss13 remake, and we could finally break free from the shackles of Byond. But to do that, ss13 needs to raise above the current "niche game" status into the mainstream club, and Twitch is the first step to achieve that.

Except the average twitch viewer somehow manages to rank lower than the average /b/ user in ability to behave like like a decent human being.

[Grazyn]

Except the average twitch viewer somehow manages to rank lower than the average /b/ user in ability to behave like like a decent human being.

Twitch chat is a really small subset of twitch viewers, maybe someone will spam OMEGALUL over the radio but at the end only the good players who want to put effort in the game will remain

[Dax Dupont]

allowing streamers would cause small amounts of unnoticeable low-key metacomming but will bring much more benefits in the long run, I'd say it's worth it

Please explain these so-called benefits of exposing SS13 to twitch viewers.

More players. As simple as that. Right now we have a server which tops at 10 players, we have room to spare. More players mean more jobs filled, fresh interactions, more potential coders and admins. And more money for the patreon, better server equipment, all in all a whole load of benefits. And who knows, with a critical mass we could even reach the final push needed for the infamous ss13 remake, and we could finally break free from the shackles of Byond. But to do that, ss13 needs to raise above the current "niche game" status into the mainstream club, and Twitch is the first step to achieve that.

Which server tops at 10?

Terry is reaching over 20 at times now.

Most of terry's appeal is the fact it's low pop as well.

[Grazyn]

Most of terry's appeal is the fact it's low pop as well.

They used to say the same about basil, now both sybil and basil reach high pop and nobody complains

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The reason why streaming is an issue for metagaming even though "they could just set up a discord thing" is that a livestream doesnt require you to have a "buddy" to cheat. The streamer has no intention of enabling metagamers, but by virtue of providing information about the game that would not otherwise be available, they open themselves up to abuse by less scrupulous players.

One streamer I handled had an clever setup where when they died, they pressed a button to cover the ingame chat and names to minimise deadchat stream-sniping, which shows that they do care about the issue, and that its about the players not the streamers.

[DemonFiren]

Most of terry's appeal is the fact it's low pop as well.

They used to say the same about basil, now both sybil and basil reach high pop and nobody complains

I'm complaining.
Then again, I don't play anymore.

This might be a larger pattern.

[Floiven]

It's probably fine if the stream is private and the friends aren't playing. I play a lot of short streams for my friends since they want to watch, and if they're playing then there's no point in streaming. If someone's streaming publicly and it comes back to bite them in the ass when someone snipes or metacomms and points out the stream as the cause, then it's fair for the streamer to eat the punishment, since they assumed the risk.

Edit to clarify that I don't stream SS13 for them, I think it'd be weird and kill the fun of playing the game for myself.

[skoglol]

Hi. I am the guy who was streaming, and I wanted to chime in and discuss ways to alleviate your concerns. Thanks Rustledjimm for handling this in a good way, and for opening this up for discussion.

First of all, I am not a big streamer. I got a few regulars, but that is about it. I mainly just stream for the enjoyment of it, and the people hanging out in the channels seem to enjoy watching and discussing some ss13.

I have gone through the thread and read your concerns, and apart from the blanket issue of metacomms a few fair points have been brought up:
-Viewers see round type if streamer is antag.
-Viewers can identify team antag's team.
-Viewers can read department radio
-Viewers can act on info gotten through stream, item and people location and so on.

Now some of these issues can be (at least partially) alleviated by imposing limitations. I am more than happy to avoid being a roundstart team antag. Chances are good that the info is already out in comms before I discover them/get converted anyway. I would also happily avoid head positions or security jobs alltogether.
Getting chosen for the other antag roles is a fairly rare occurence, and if that information is used will mostly just hinder myself.
Someone did mention a deadchat overlay when ghost, which is also a possibility to prevent spreading information.
That leaves the last issue. I might be naive, but I would expect server regulars to strive to follow the metagaming rules in the first place. But I see a different side of people than you admins do, so I will leave that conclusion up to you.

Either way, I think this should leave a pretty limited amount of non-public information obtainable through the stream.

So lets get to the heart of the matter. What would it take in terms of special rules or considerations to be able to stream from tg servers without a delay?
Anyone have other reasonable suggestions to prevent roundbreaking information getting out?

[Shadowflame909]

You have to be a round-start mute. Just close that chat tab and reduce it to 0. Now there's no way you can find out about antagonists before the station does!

[Rustledjimm]

Hi. I am the guy who was streaming, and I wanted to chime in and discuss ways to alleviate your concerns. Thanks Rustledjimm for handling this in a good way, and for opening this up for discussion.

First of all, I am not a big streamer. I got a few regulars, but that is about it. I mainly just stream for the enjoyment of it, and the people hanging out in the channels seem to enjoy watching and discussing some ss13.
Now some of these issues can be (at least partially) alleviated by imposing limitations. I am more than happy to avoid being a roundstart team antag. Chances are good that the info is already out in comms before I discover them/get converted anyway. I would also happily avoid head positions or security jobs alltogether.
Getting chosen for the other antag roles is a fairly rare occurence, and if that information is used will mostly just hinder myself.
Someone did mention a deadchat overlay when ghost, which is also a possibility to prevent spreading information.
That leaves the last issue. I might be naive, but I would expect server regulars to strive to follow the metagaming rules in the first place. But I see a different side of people than you admins do, so I will leave that conclusion up to you.

Either way, I think this should leave a pretty limited amount of non-public information obtainable through the stream.

So lets get to the heart of the matter. What would it take in terms of special rules or considerations to be able to stream from tg servers without a delay?
Anyone have other reasonable suggestions to prevent roundbreaking information getting out?

Can I just thank you first of all for taking your time to post here. I really appreciate getting your thoughts on the matter.

I would certainly like it for streamers to be able to have no delay, as you said when we talked with a delay there is no viewer contribution to the stream which defeats the point of the it. I am currently erring on the side of at the very least blocking the chat window after death and not playing team antags. Solo antags would be fine for exactly the reasons you state. These are my own current thoughts on the matter

My only other request would be that streamers let any admins online know that they are streaming at the moment. Just so the admin knows incase anyone attempts to stream snipe you etc. using information from your stream to their own advantage. Allowing streamers will create potentially unknown metagaming but as has been said we don't know if two players are in a discord voice channel together when they could always be doing that, and we still catch that. I can't see the harm in allowing streaming and I see benefits for both us and the streamer.

[skoglol]

Was there a final verdict on this?

[BeeSting12]

yeah its in the post above yours