I want to know if people think that murderboning is a genuine issue.

[CDranzer]

If you don't agree to that. Why should you make it so that having a Rollerbed will make people able to drag bodies at full speed.

Yeah, all the antags that need to kill people and get away, which is basically all of them. Will surely not take notice of this scarce way to do something fast.

Good point. Rollerbeds should also get a (probably lesser) speed nerf. Maybe a longer buckling time too.

I agree that medical needs more of a purpose. But that's going to have severe negative consequences.

Okay but fuck medical, I don't want this PR because muh bleed-dragging (I always stick a rollerbed in my bag as a doctor at roundstart anyway), I want this change because slightly inconveniencing doctors is a fair price to pay in order to kneecap the entire corpsedragging antag meta that infests combat mechanics like a bad case of gangrene

[Shadowflame909]

Well, I guess we sorta agree.

I don't want that PR because I feel like it lied on that whole Fireman carry situation, and I would greatly prefer a version of it. Even without the fireman carry, where an item didn't give you an advantage over everyone else.

That was pretty short-sighted. You make a medical item more important, you make medical worse because now everyone's breaking in for that item.

[imsxz]

the point of the PR is to nerf antags not nerf medical shadowflame???? it's hardly a med nerf, antags rely much more on speed while dragging people than doctors do. You have like 3 or 4 whole minutes to get someone from soft crit to medbay, not taking into account the meds that you have on hand as a doctor which is probably enough to heal them anyways. Antags have literal seconds to book it if they get shouted about before they're doomed to need to fight more people, the PR would force a lot more thinking before murdering someone in the hallway. I dont even have an issue with murderboning i just think it would be better for the game.

[Shadowflame909]

I can't call it an antag nerf either IMSXZ. Whichever antag gets the rollerbed/insuls first has an advantage over everyone else.

That sounds like a shitty mechanic to me

Edit: Ultimately to end this off-topic conversation. My viewpoint is that let us say for example Lexia Black is an antag and finds a medi-borg. They law 2 the borg to drop its roller bed, and take it for themselves. Now, Lexia Black has gained the ability to drag someone without any slowdowns. An Ability anyone without a rollerbed does not have.

It's just another inequality that this game does not need.

To summarize. It's Nerf or nothing. Don't make items immune to it. Otherwise, you get more unfair bullshit that actually can increase the advantage antags have over others.

Well, it could apply to sec over an antag as well, not doubting that. It'd most definitively save the heartache to just nip these stray scenarios in the bud though. Equal gains.

[CDranzer]

Well, I guess we sorta agree.

I don't want that PR because I feel like it lied on that whole Fireman carry situation, and I would greatly prefer a version of it. Even without the fireman carry, where an item didn't give you an advantage over everyone else.

That was pretty short-sighted. You make a medical item more important, you make medical worse because now everyone's breaking in for that item.

Hey look, if you want to talk about medical, I'm probably right with you on a lot of things. Some of my dream PRs involve kicking science out of medical and giving doctors the tools to solve interesting problems involving patient care. I don't think medbay is in a good place, and I'm not sure how it should be fixed without absolutely gutting it in the process (which, frankly, may be necessary). That said, I've also seen discussions, possibly even from you (I don't keep perfect track of names and opinions) about how there's a strong interdependence between fast antag and fast medical, and you kind of need to slow both of them down at the same time because slowing down either separately kind of breaks the other.

Fireman Carry just strikes me as a ghetto transport strategy. Rollerbeds probably should be the meta for transporting people. Like, what else would it be? I think there should also probably be a tradeoff between how long it takes to initialize your carry strategy vs how much it hurts your mobility. So bed-buckling should probably be the slowest thing. But I still feel like all of this is minutia because no you're probably not going to get it absolutely perfect on the first run. Like, dragging corpses is so fundamental to how combat plays out that I legitimately don't know what the game would look like if you removed it. It changes so much on so many levels. But I think it's a necessary and critical nerf, and you can always buff some of the unintentional nerfs later.

[cedarbridge]

The odds of an antag stealing a roller bed just so they can toss it under somebody they stunned and run off with them are so colossally small it makes me wonder why you're worried about it. The point of stun + turbodrag is that you can do it in two clicks. Having to stop and pull out, set up and buckle a victim to a bed before taking off with them entirely undermines the process. Its not like we have people stealing them now for a portable place to bucklecuff a victim.

[Shadowflame909]

If it makes sense to you. I just really don't like the potential of an advantage that the majority cannot obtain. That's the gist of it.

The roundstart method has a gauge bar + a slowdown.

So in my eyes, the roller bed would seem like the faster solution to many. Including myself.

[Cobby]

> I just really don't like the potential of an advantage that the majority cannot obtain

attainability is like a certerpiece to balance in almost all games though?

[Shadowflame909]

Extremely true and factual. The opposite is also true though.

It's why the pulse rifle is 1/1 million. Whoever gets it will have the strongest non-admin intervention item in the game.

I wager the scarcity is going to make balance worse.

But, I've been wrong before. So we'll just have to wait and see.

[cedarbridge]

Scarcity is literally the point of departments and access. This isn't a perfectly balanced arena shooter. Not everyone is supposed to have equal access to everything.

[Shadowflame909]

Very easy to break into a wall or a door. You could just yell at the ai anyways.

Access can get dunked on honestly. Doesn't even matter anymore

[CDranzer]

Access can get dunked on honestly. Doesn't even matter anymore

If you were to give everybody all access by default I guarantee everything would go to shit at an alarming pace.

[NecromancerAnne]

I also like the part where Shadowflame forgot the beat where antags literally are given an advantage others normally cannot obtain anyway so like, who gives a fuck if they managed to steal a rollerbed just to more quickly move a stunned target.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

what kind of autist is gonna buckle stunned people on rolled beds lmao tapping on morphine is more reliable than precise drag a dude on a rollerbed and hide in maint

[Shadowflame909]

Access can get dunked on honestly. Doesn't even matter anymore

If you were to give everybody all access by default I guarantee everything would go to shit at an alarming pace.

I mean that there's so many effortless ways, and ones with a bit more effort. That not having access to a place doesn't really matter.

An assistant is always stealing the captains locker 5 minutes in anyways.

[CDranzer]

I mean okay yeah you can solve problems if you have the right tools and sometimes the tools aren't exactly hard to get but I feel like there's this sort of extreme hyperbole I see in these types of discussions where people think that just because a thing can happen that means it will always happen 100% of the time every time without fail

Like yes technically speaking all that's needed for a plasma flood is one bored assistant with some basic tools and a 20 second window, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a fucking horrendous idea to make engineering all-access because the fact is there's an enormous distinction between a small impediment and no impediments at all, and I don't think that distinction gets enough respect in these kinds of threads

[Shadowflame909]

It's not hyperbole.

It's extremely easy to get to where you want to be at the station.

Your round isn't impeded because you don't have an ID after being cloned, and there's no HoP.

It's very easy to get around that, nearly as easy as clicking a door and watching it Open. Like if you had an ID.

Edit: Thinking about it. There are enough ways to bypass access restrictions that it can at least fill up 1/3rd of a servers population if they were players.

[PKPenguin321]

Scarcity is literally the point of departments and access. This isn't a perfectly balanced arena shooter. Not everyone is supposed to have equal access to everything.

Scarcity = rarity in this regard btw

[cedarbridge]

Scarcity is literally the point of departments and access. This isn't a perfectly balanced arena shooter. Not everyone is supposed to have equal access to everything.

Scarcity = rarity in this regard btw

There should probably be more of that in the game as well. Infinite production lathes have QoL'd the limited access to specialized tools out of most parts of the game. "Has anyone seen the saw?" has given way to "Whatever, I'll go print 30 more"