how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
- Shadowflame909
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowflame909
- Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
Several years ago...The end of the round would be signified when the majority of jobs science team got antag stuff. Xenobio had wizard stuff.
Now we're sort of teetering around antag stuff but slightly worse and with very specific usage.
But antagonist gear has also gotten weaker.
We're in the opposite of an arms race. We're in a floor race!
So I ask you all...When can I get a sling and throw rocks at a changeling?
Now we're sort of teetering around antag stuff but slightly worse and with very specific usage.
But antagonist gear has also gotten weaker.
We're in the opposite of an arms race. We're in a floor race!
So I ask you all...When can I get a sling and throw rocks at a changeling?
► Show Spoiler
- NecromancerAnne
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm
- Byond Username: NecromancerAnne
- Location: Don't touch me, motherfucker...
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
You can kinda already sling rocks at changelings. Floor tiles are not terrible ranged weapons for something so abundantly available.
My opinion is that most of that shit is hollow progression that doesn't really mean much at all. What do you do as a xenoling with endless revives? Not much other than present a timebomb to any threat on the station or a escalation nightmare from being indistinguishable from an antagonist.
And since threats were effectively on a timer before these little antag wannabes get into gear, you saw often antags speedrunning to kill everyone as quickly as possible to beat these guys out, even with fairly tame objectives, or killing the high power late content jobs before they got underway.
This design is disruptive and cause a feedback loop that ultimately pushes rounds into concluding as rapidly as possible.
Progression based threats seem to have this problem as well, with heretics and cultists both proving to be only really beatable if you donk them early (and utterly), or you call the shuttle at the earliest opportunity. Hivemind was this as well, but the speedrun strategy there was more difficult given it was potentially a silent antagonist before it hit pinkgang. I'm sure ye olde Shadowling wasn't much better from what I've been told.
Forget any of this progress shit. This is entirely useless content and only makes the problem worse by tricking people into thinking that the only meaningful gameplay has to come with ever more powerful rewards for dubious value and use. A job should have a fun loop inherent to the gameplay itself, and anything gained as progression should be further access to more content in your job, or rounding out content already available with greater effectiveness (think some of the medical research). It doesn't have to be without rewards entirely, just that they should be related to that job and help complement it. It isn't about content floors, it's about everything between the floor and ceiling being dead air.
Also jobs should stay the fuck in their lane and not take over the work of others. This includes validhunting tools. Keep it to sec if anywhere.
My opinion is that most of that shit is hollow progression that doesn't really mean much at all. What do you do as a xenoling with endless revives? Not much other than present a timebomb to any threat on the station or a escalation nightmare from being indistinguishable from an antagonist.
And since threats were effectively on a timer before these little antag wannabes get into gear, you saw often antags speedrunning to kill everyone as quickly as possible to beat these guys out, even with fairly tame objectives, or killing the high power late content jobs before they got underway.
This design is disruptive and cause a feedback loop that ultimately pushes rounds into concluding as rapidly as possible.
Progression based threats seem to have this problem as well, with heretics and cultists both proving to be only really beatable if you donk them early (and utterly), or you call the shuttle at the earliest opportunity. Hivemind was this as well, but the speedrun strategy there was more difficult given it was potentially a silent antagonist before it hit pinkgang. I'm sure ye olde Shadowling wasn't much better from what I've been told.
Forget any of this progress shit. This is entirely useless content and only makes the problem worse by tricking people into thinking that the only meaningful gameplay has to come with ever more powerful rewards for dubious value and use. A job should have a fun loop inherent to the gameplay itself, and anything gained as progression should be further access to more content in your job, or rounding out content already available with greater effectiveness (think some of the medical research). It doesn't have to be without rewards entirely, just that they should be related to that job and help complement it. It isn't about content floors, it's about everything between the floor and ceiling being dead air.
Also jobs should stay the fuck in their lane and not take over the work of others. This includes validhunting tools. Keep it to sec if anywhere.
- Omega_DarkPotato
- In-Game Admin Trainer
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:05 am
- Byond Username: Omega_DarkPotato
- Location: Former Hell, Gensokyo
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
To add on to NecromancerAnne's post, power corrupts/absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Muh gamer gearTM or absurdly powerful gear tends to have an effect on more than just a handful of people - how often have you heard the excuse of "well I had it I might as well use it"?
Antag shit, wizard shit, maxcaps with no use case, et cetera all has a negative effect in the form of people getting bored and either sliding the reason to use this gear down or just selfantagging because "lol it'll be funny".
I'm no fan of a hard line on "how much is too much" as I feel like there's definitely circumstances where it's completely reasonable to powergame your ass off, and it's not just nuclear war being declared either - but a lot of the time I'm finding myself wishing people wouldn't go to the extremes they did, because they're now left with absurd abilities and nothing to do other than grief and selfantag. (Which they then do)
I'm not a fan of the example in the post either where people feel forced to preemptively eliminate targets out of fear of retribution occurring.
Sci definitely needs to be hit with the nerf bat at some point. It's still got wizard bullshit.
Muh gamer gearTM or absurdly powerful gear tends to have an effect on more than just a handful of people - how often have you heard the excuse of "well I had it I might as well use it"?
Antag shit, wizard shit, maxcaps with no use case, et cetera all has a negative effect in the form of people getting bored and either sliding the reason to use this gear down or just selfantagging because "lol it'll be funny".
I'm no fan of a hard line on "how much is too much" as I feel like there's definitely circumstances where it's completely reasonable to powergame your ass off, and it's not just nuclear war being declared either - but a lot of the time I'm finding myself wishing people wouldn't go to the extremes they did, because they're now left with absurd abilities and nothing to do other than grief and selfantag. (Which they then do)
I'm not a fan of the example in the post either where people feel forced to preemptively eliminate targets out of fear of retribution occurring.
Sci definitely needs to be hit with the nerf bat at some point. It's still got wizard bullshit.
play opus: echo of starsongSuper Aggro Crag wrote:This is what u get when u let people into your community
I'm an admin, typically on /tg/station Sybil. If you've got anything you'd like to say about me, my adminning, or my decisions, please comment in my admin feedback thread!
- Shadowflame909
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
- Byond Username: Shadowflame909
- Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
yeah thats fair
an arms race of defense at the very least would be a much preferable outlook compared to an arms race of offense and no one to use it on.
Imagine the crew being strong enough to contain even nuclear devastation. That'd be a real trip.
an arms race of defense at the very least would be a much preferable outlook compared to an arms race of offense and no one to use it on.
Imagine the crew being strong enough to contain even nuclear devastation. That'd be a real trip.
► Show Spoiler
- datorangebottle
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Datorangebottle
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
can we give scientists a good gameplay loop before or while hitting it with the nerf bat?Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:20 pm Sci definitely needs to be hit with the nerf bat at some point. It's still got wizard bullshit.
they currently don't have one.
► Show Spoiler
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
- Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
When you code it!Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:38 am Several years ago...The end of the round would be signified when the majority of jobs science team got antag stuff. Xenobio had wizard stuff.
Now we're sort of teetering around antag stuff but slightly worse and with very specific usage.
But antagonist gear has also gotten weaker.
We're in the opposite of an arms race. We're in a floor race!
So I ask you all...When can I get a sling and throw rocks at a changeling?
-
- Forum Soft Banned
- Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 am
- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
its only bad if they can kill people with it in one hit then i dont want them to have it
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- terranaut
- Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
- Byond Username: Terranaut
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
'member when a crowbar was all you needed to kill someone running after you very quickly and easily, just crowbarring up tiles and tossing them at your pursuer?Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:38 am So I ask you all...When can I get a sling and throw rocks at a changeling?
i 'member
- Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
The maintainers are aware of those problems, expect multiple failed attempts to fix them within this decade.datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:48 pmcan we give scientists a good gameplay loop before or while hitting it with the nerf bat?Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:20 pm Sci definitely needs to be hit with the nerf bat at some point. It's still got wizard bullshit.
they currently don't have one.
► Show Spoiler
- Pandarsenic
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
- Byond Username: Pandarsenic
- Location: AI Upload
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
R&D has already had at least 3 or 4 different versions on /tg/ alone within the past 10 years
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- JusticeGoat
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 8:36 am
- Byond Username: JusticeGoat
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
my main issue is /tg/ code is built as a one size fits all, the needs of mrp and lrp are somewhat different with the nerfs hitting because someone on lrp had to game too hard with stuff but we don't have enough coders to maintain two forks.
- Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
However, there is a very big HRP server that runs on a codebase that is a downstream of tgstation. We should make Manuel run that.JusticeGoat wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:48 am my main issue is /tg/ code is built as a one size fits all, the needs of mrp and lrp are somewhat different with the nerfs hitting because someone on lrp had to game too hard with stuff but we don't have enough coders to maintain two forks.
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: how strong is too strong for the crew to have?
But Manuel isn't an HRP server. And it shouldn't be.Rohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:23 pmHowever, there is a very big HRP server that runs on a codebase that is a downstream of tgstation. We should make Manuel run that.JusticeGoat wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:48 am my main issue is /tg/ code is built as a one size fits all, the needs of mrp and lrp are somewhat different with the nerfs hitting because someone on lrp had to game too hard with stuff but we don't have enough coders to maintain two forks.
► Show Spoiler
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Diasyl