[Coding/PR] Player Council.
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[Coding/PR] Player Council.
The idea in general is to create a council of experienced/veteran players that are interested in the future of tg for the purpose of discussing new ideas/PRs that are to be implemented in to the game directly with those who are gonna be responsible for the PR, in order to exchange information between two parties and have a smoother transition towards a new feature, and a clearer vision that aligns the interests of the playerbase and coders more accurately.
The process: Several players will be selected based on they re knowledge in specific areas of the game. Afterwards for instance there is a massive PR or for time efficiency sake, there are several massive PRs that are about to be implemented. Before the implementation of the PRs , the selected players will represent the interests of the playerbase, will gather feedback on a specific time frame from other players and input they re own feedback based on the tremendeous experience they have. (specific time frame can be a poll or can be a topic on dm that will be open for a few days) After the feedback has been gathered by the select few players, a meeting will be held between the coders , who will be implementing this PR and the players who will represent the playerbase.
A discussion will be held, the key points wil lbe:
- The mechanics behind the PR/ feature that is to be implemented.
- The possible theortical impact it will have on the gameplay.
- Feedback/concerns/ideas from the players, that will be shared by the player council.
- General information exchange between coders and the player council, exchanging ideas for the sake of quality improvement and a clear vision.
Why even bring this idea up: There are several factors to consider:
- First of all , yes there is a coder feedback right below the ideas tab, however I see the forums are not being used as frequently as discord for instance. Discord also allows to exchange information as fast as possible ,however it can be anything aside from discord, as long as it is real time discussion that has a dedicatied timeframe for both parties in order to pour they re energy and concetration in to the discussion phase.
- This will also prevent the coders from having to hear unga bunga comments from the more colorful section of the playerbase, as they will be discussing it with a handful of selected players who have a vast experience on they re back and are interested in improving the game , additionally transmiting the messages of the players who left a meaningful feedback in regards a specific PR that is being discussed right now.
- This will save some resources and time on unintentional errors/hiccups/unforseen difficulties that may pop up later. (Damage control in a way) As it will be a more of a united effort between the playerbase and coders, filling the gaps in theory phase of the cycle. (Think off it as a IT infrastrucutre cycle, where the project before being implemented is being discussed with the clients , in this case players, before being released in to the development and testing phase)
Discussion is quite vital in this case, so constructive critisism/feedback is always a welcome thing here.
The process: Several players will be selected based on they re knowledge in specific areas of the game. Afterwards for instance there is a massive PR or for time efficiency sake, there are several massive PRs that are about to be implemented. Before the implementation of the PRs , the selected players will represent the interests of the playerbase, will gather feedback on a specific time frame from other players and input they re own feedback based on the tremendeous experience they have. (specific time frame can be a poll or can be a topic on dm that will be open for a few days) After the feedback has been gathered by the select few players, a meeting will be held between the coders , who will be implementing this PR and the players who will represent the playerbase.
A discussion will be held, the key points wil lbe:
- The mechanics behind the PR/ feature that is to be implemented.
- The possible theortical impact it will have on the gameplay.
- Feedback/concerns/ideas from the players, that will be shared by the player council.
- General information exchange between coders and the player council, exchanging ideas for the sake of quality improvement and a clear vision.
Why even bring this idea up: There are several factors to consider:
- First of all , yes there is a coder feedback right below the ideas tab, however I see the forums are not being used as frequently as discord for instance. Discord also allows to exchange information as fast as possible ,however it can be anything aside from discord, as long as it is real time discussion that has a dedicatied timeframe for both parties in order to pour they re energy and concetration in to the discussion phase.
- This will also prevent the coders from having to hear unga bunga comments from the more colorful section of the playerbase, as they will be discussing it with a handful of selected players who have a vast experience on they re back and are interested in improving the game , additionally transmiting the messages of the players who left a meaningful feedback in regards a specific PR that is being discussed right now.
- This will save some resources and time on unintentional errors/hiccups/unforseen difficulties that may pop up later. (Damage control in a way) As it will be a more of a united effort between the playerbase and coders, filling the gaps in theory phase of the cycle. (Think off it as a IT infrastrucutre cycle, where the project before being implemented is being discussed with the clients , in this case players, before being released in to the development and testing phase)
Discussion is quite vital in this case, so constructive critisism/feedback is always a welcome thing here.
- bastardblaster
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
They are doing the functions that are described above indeed, aka senior coders . The point here is that a lot of untapped potential input is still left in the wilderness of the playerbase. Inviting some extra pair of heads who will actively collect player feedback and relay it back for future PR via discussion , additionaly provide they re own input based on the experience they had. (Considering maintainers and coders have a quite busy schedule to test every little detail themselves, help from the outside could assist a bit in regards to that issue)
- Sylphet
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Code and administration are separate. Nothing that we can decide in this thread can ever impact them. Even if we implemented this, all it would be is unnecessary bureaucracy to form a body with zero influence over the coders. The council could unanimously decide on something like we should return cloning and it would make no difference. They would be ignored.
The value of the council aside - define veteran players, that could mean anything. Who chooses who is placed on the council ? What areas of the game do veterans need to be experienced in to be able to join the council ? And if we already have a group of veteran players willing to sacrifice our time for the future of TG who are supposed to represent the community as a whole - the entire admin team - what point is there to making a second group of people with even less power ? If admins are not this group, then what mechanisms exist to prevent the player council from becoming just as out of touch ?
The value of the council aside - define veteran players, that could mean anything. Who chooses who is placed on the council ? What areas of the game do veterans need to be experienced in to be able to join the council ? And if we already have a group of veteran players willing to sacrifice our time for the future of TG who are supposed to represent the community as a whole - the entire admin team - what point is there to making a second group of people with even less power ? If admins are not this group, then what mechanisms exist to prevent the player council from becoming just as out of touch ?
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
- Timberpoes
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Anyone can do this. You can do it right now. Simply go on https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation and provide feedback on any PR.
You can also go to the coding channel on the Discord and discuss exactly the same things.
Or use the coding subforum here.
You already are the council. A council of one. With all the same powers and privileges they they would have.
However, you are also broadly describing the functions the maintainer team already exercises.
https://xkcd.com/927/
You can also go to the coding channel on the Discord and discuss exactly the same things.
Or use the coding subforum here.
You already are the council. A council of one. With all the same powers and privileges they they would have.
However, you are also broadly describing the functions the maintainer team already exercises.
https://xkcd.com/927/
/tg/station Codebase Maintainer
/tg/station Game Master/Discord Jannie: Feed me back in my thread.
/tg/station Admin Trainer: Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
Feb 2022-Sep 2022 Host Vote Headmin
Mar 2023-Sep 2023 Admin Vote Headmin
/tg/station Game Master/Discord Jannie: Feed me back in my thread.
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- FantasticFwoosh
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:29 pm Anyone can do this. You can do it right now. Simply go on https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation and provide feedback on any PR. <- gets repoblocked and content-discussion turned off anyway for being "too heated"
You can also go to the coding channel on the Discord and discuss exactly the same things. <- Get muted or kicked from server discord
Or use the coding subforum here. <- Not relied upon in seriousness, will get onto post approval and WYCI'd
You already are the council. A council of one. With all the same powers and privileges they they would have.
~snip~
Reality check.
Spoiler:
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Player council is essentially a term of community liasons which are player ambassadors that will in essence be collecting general throughts/ideas/wishes from the playerbase in regards to a major PR change, then relaying they re own thoughts and noteworthy ideas in a constructive discussion with the coders before having the PR going live.Sylphet wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:28 pm Code and administration are separate. Nothing that we can decide in this thread can ever impact them. Even if we implemented this, all it would be is unnecessary bureaucracy to form a body with zero influence over the coders. The council could unanimously decide on something like we should return cloning and it would make no difference. They would be ignored.
The value of the council aside - define veteran players, that could mean anything. Who chooses who is placed on the council ? What areas of the game do veterans need to be experienced in to be able to join the council ? And if we already have a group of veteran players willing to sacrifice our time for the future of TG who are supposed to represent the community as a whole - the entire admin team - what point is there to making a second group of people with even less power ? If admins are not this group, then what mechanisms exist to prevent the player council from becoming just as out of touch ?
Veterans are players who have huge amounts of knowledge/experience/playtime , for instance atmos knowledge by having few hundreds of hours behind they re belt , and have some degree of trust within the community. The point of the liasons is not to make demands, it is to provide feedback to upcoming changes , by providing ideas/concerns from the playerbase and themselves in hopes of a consensus that can be reached . A third party so to say to complement the coders which has no real power, just a voice of gamers to be heard and to be taken in to consideration in a more centralized manner (despite having coders feedback, github and other sources ) A more direct way to collect data so to speak, less chaotic and more concetrated. As majority are using discord sadly and not so many are using github and the forums even despite having a coders discord. A lot of unprocessed data is being lost especially among the fresh blood.
Edit: In regards the groups mechanism, a community manager can be placed to oversee the processes of this little group. Community manager part of the admins of course to maintain control. (Now theres something interesting Does TG even have a community manager officially?)
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
The point of this post is to create player ambassadors .This will help a way to acquire a more centralized way of collecting data for the upcoming PRs, instead of having people come to the links , the ambassadors will come to the player base instead (Aka for instance a chatroom at discord to provide some ideas) This is less time taxing and energy consuming for the coders since theres a specific time table when all of those ideas are brought neatly by the ambassadors in a specific time table. This has some benefits, data input will not be lost in the process of players not knowing where to post it, involving the fresher blood. After all more ideas and suggestions are a healthy way to provide new means towards existing issues or upcoming challenges. More intel in the post above.Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:29 pm Anyone can do this. You can do it right now. Simply go on https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation and provide feedback on any PR.
You can also go to the coding channel on the Discord and discuss exactly the same things.
Or use the coding subforum here.
You already are the council. A council of one. With all the same powers and privileges they they would have.
However, you are also broadly describing the functions the maintainer team already exercises.
https://xkcd.com/927/
- Itseasytosee2me
- Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Who would run this whole operation, you?Asternoxx wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:06 pmPlayer council is essentially a term of community liasons which are player ambassadors that will in essence be collecting general throughts/ideas/wishes from the playerbase in regards to a major PR change, then relaying they re own thoughts and noteworthy ideas in a constructive discussion with the coders before having the PR going live.Sylphet wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:28 pm Code and administration are separate. Nothing that we can decide in this thread can ever impact them. Even if we implemented this, all it would be is unnecessary bureaucracy to form a body with zero influence over the coders. The council could unanimously decide on something like we should return cloning and it would make no difference. They would be ignored.
The value of the council aside - define veteran players, that could mean anything. Who chooses who is placed on the council ? What areas of the game do veterans need to be experienced in to be able to join the council ? And if we already have a group of veteran players willing to sacrifice our time for the future of TG who are supposed to represent the community as a whole - the entire admin team - what point is there to making a second group of people with even less power ? If admins are not this group, then what mechanisms exist to prevent the player council from becoming just as out of touch ?
Veterans are players who have huge amounts of knowledge/experience/playtime , for instance atmos knowledge by having few hundreds of hours behind they re belt , and have some degree of trust within the community. The point of the liasons is not to make demands, it is to provide feedback to upcoming changes , by providing ideas/concerns from the playerbase and themselves in hopes of a consensus that can be reached . A third party so to say to complement the coders which has no real power, just a voice of gamers to be heard and to be taken in to consideration in a more centralized manner (despite having coders feedback, github and other sources ) A more direct way to collect data so to speak, less chaotic and more concetrated. As majority are using discord sadly and not so many are using github and the forums even despite having a coders discord. A lot of unprocessed data is being lost especially among the fresh blood.
Edit: In regards the groups mechanism, a community manager can be placed to oversee the processes of this little group. Community manager part of the admins of course to maintain control. (Now theres something interesting Does TG even have a community manager officially?)
Go ahead, get a group and try to unionize. The maintainer and administrative team couldn't really help you if they wanted to.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Please note there is a critical criteria in the quoted mesage regarding the eligbility of the position in question
Who would run this whole operation, you?
Go ahead, get a group and try to unionize. The maintainer and administrative team couldn't really help you if they wanted to.
As it stands i am still a fresh player, that is not known by the community at all to even speak about trust. However you make an interesting point that the group of specialists/abassadors could exist unofficially.Veterans are players who have huge amounts of knowledge/experience/playtime and have some degree of trust within the community
- TheFinalPotato
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Coders aren't this inherently separate group of people from players. I maintain atmos, trust me, I don't need more opinions from experienced players, I've got like 6 who are actively developing it, while also being experienced.
That's like, the one strong suit of this development style. Our coders and developers are just, our community. There's no point in a player outreach program because players already outreach quite a lot.
Speaking personally, I know how players feel about things pretty well most of the time. I just disagree with them.
What you're suggesting wouldn't change that, it would just making the changes I want harder, because my coders would be under further pressure from this organization, more then they already are from the general playerbase.
No.
That's like, the one strong suit of this development style. Our coders and developers are just, our community. There's no point in a player outreach program because players already outreach quite a lot.
Speaking personally, I know how players feel about things pretty well most of the time. I just disagree with them.
What you're suggesting wouldn't change that, it would just making the changes I want harder, because my coders would be under further pressure from this organization, more then they already are from the general playerbase.
No.
- Pandarsenic
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
GOD DAMN IT WHY DID IT DOUBLE POST
Last edited by Pandarsenic on Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Pandarsenic
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
If anything you need less HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOTheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:00 pm Coders aren't this inherently separate group of people from players. I maintain atmos, trust me, I don't need more opinions from experienced players, I've got like 6 who are actively developing it, while also being experienced.
I'm here all week
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- TheFinalPotato
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
If you didn't doublepost I'd call you based
- BeeSting12
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
While I do agree that we need more accountability over the github, I personally think we could do with more accountability over the whole server as well. I found this draft of a constitution on the forums from a long time ago, perhaps we could model the player council idea after that.
Spoiler:
- Mothblocks
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
LETS GOOOO BEESTING
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.
Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
- NoxVS
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Your best bet would be to serve as the guy who collects all the various different player's opinions and present them as your own all at once
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
That would be indeed the most optimal option here.
Alright the general idea is understood. Lets leave the player council behind a bit, heres a more neutral suggestion. TG seems to be a growing a community with veterans and a surge of new players that comes in tides. Instead of the player ambassadors , TG could use a community manager. According to the thread intel, coders are already under the pressure from the playersbase , the CM could aleviate that pressure, by representing major PRs in an attractive light/explaining its features/vision , giving the coders more space so to say. At the same time CM would have benefits for the playerbase, lending an ear to understand the general concerns of the playerbase along with they re wishes , then relaying them to the coders. CM is a part of the administration under normal conditions, this seems like a win/win for both sides. Aside from other functions CM could have. (like coordinating events)
- Pandarsenic
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
- Shadowflame909
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
trust me i've been complaining about nerf and removal prs for the last 3 years
A single court jester is funny but a group of court jesters get old
A large amount of court jesters may not be court jesters at all and you could have a riot on your hands
A single court jester is funny but a group of court jesters get old
A large amount of court jesters may not be court jesters at all and you could have a riot on your hands
► Show Spoiler
- Mothblocks
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
you are now describing the head coders, and maintainers like me who dont mind stepping up to plateAsternoxx wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:06 pmThat would be indeed the most optimal option here.
Alright the general idea is understood. Lets leave the player council behind a bit, heres a more neutral suggestion. TG seems to be a growing a community with veterans and a surge of new players that comes in tides. Instead of the player ambassadors , TG could use a community manager. According to the thread intel, coders are already under the pressure from the playersbase , the CM could aleviate that pressure, by representing major PRs in an attractive light/explaining its features/vision , giving the coders more space so to say. At the same time CM would have benefits for the playerbase, lending an ear to understand the general concerns of the playerbase along with they re wishes , then relaying them to the coders. CM is a part of the administration under normal conditions, this seems like a win/win for both sides. Aside from other functions CM could have. (like coordinating events)
Head Coder of /tg/station, hi!Shaps-cloud wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.
Mothblocks everywhere, >>> Say nice things about me <<<
- Arcanemusic
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
That was a satirical comment, so you know. You... also missed the context of the comment completely.
It was about the spelling of words and grammar in the codebase. Are you seriously going to use this as your claim that the codebase is a ironclad oligarchy suppressing it's players?
- FantasticFwoosh
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
- Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh
Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
My reply was satirically framed to the topic, that's all. Image inset, maintainers commenting on things already working as a panel/council whatever (at least one of them), thanks for the context as im sure it'll help the OP.Arcanemusic wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:58 pmIt was about the spelling of words and grammar in the codebase. Are you seriously going to use this as your claim that the codebase is a ironclad oligarchy suppressing it's players?
Off Topic
Its not my thread or intended claim to make fun of me for, go touch astroturf
Spoiler:
- Imitates-The-Lizards
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Re: [Coding/PR] Player Council.
Just posting this here from this thread - viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31344&start=50oranges wrote: ↑
I'm telling you how it's been, how it will always be and you should be grateful honestly, because everyone else here is too much of a sociopath to tell you the truth
The staff, especially the admins, decide exactly what the server will do, the only way players have input in that realistically is to become admins and then influence the internal decision making.
I think everyone who participates in /tg/station should understand this fact pretty clearly, because the misconceptions only hurt feelings when things don't go the way people want.
like: do you really think anyone from the playerbase had any real input on the rule 11 change? Firstly, it only happened because mso got annoyed at some behaviour, and secondly, if it had been put to the community I expect it would have lost any poll. What about that kind of thing makes you think in any way you had the ability to influence the server?
I think if we're going to have any kind of real discussion we should be honest about exactly what it looks like.
Seeing as how it's highly relevant here.
tldr, join the admin or coding team or get ignored. And, y'know, oranges is right. Anyone who doesn't tell you that straight up is just a sociopath who is manipulating you.
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