[<Rectification>] TheLoLSwat - ban

[TheLoLSwat]

BYOND account: TheLoLSwat
Character name: Lisa Green
Ban type: serverw
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: otherwise modify the reason.
Time ban was placed: around 10 PM utc today
Server you were playing on when banned: sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: Round ID, should be present in ban reason from server. Can be excluded if it cannot be found.
Your side of the story:
Round starts, HOS requests that his security use gulag and brig. I inform him that roughing up prisoners helps them learn the lesson better than any sentence (this will be important later) i collect the gear that spawns with me INCLUDING energy gun, hand tele, captains laser gun . (because how admins treat captains that get antique early is different i try to wait until blue alert so it would make sense for a captain to want to keep his gun with him IC) I grab the other hand tele and put it into the safe until RD can safely come retreive it. While putting it in the safe the HOS asks me to deep fry the bridge fireaxe. I knew exactly what he meant and agreed with his OOC reasoning, but IC there was no real justification other than metagaming so i instead offer to put the axe in the safe if i can fit it, which i am able to do. After locking the safe and leaving the code accessible (so i can grab the nuke disk before shuttle gets on board is my IC reasoning, i dont want to powergame the disk by putting it in an inaccessible location is my OOC reason). After dealing with a few tiders breaking into bridge (dont think this is relevant but if it is i can go in depth) I go to security. I go to the sec lockers and grab pepperspray. A flash is also picked up but i cant recall if it was from bridge or security locker room. Regardless, I believe that captain is well within his IC right when a blue alert is called to get pepper spray and flash a concealed last resort self defense option. I then go to the armory and get the following items
- Dragnet (nonlethal faster way to stop an assailant if i am engaging defensively)
- box of flashbangs (nonlethal way to protect myself if i am attacked unexpectedly)
- security gas mask (cool looking gas mask)
- riot helmet (better looking than ballistic and there arent any guns on station so it wouldnt make sense, also i just pick random headgears as captain and come up with a random IC justification for it)

Up until the armory is how i consistently "set up" (for lack of a better term) for a round as captain before i can start going around checking departments and feeling out what the crew is getting up to. Armory section fluctuates of course due to circumstance.

I believe around after this point im dealing with a rev round but i get an ahelp pretty early into the round. Admin asks about what im doing and why im "geared to the teeth" I give IC justifications for all that i have (some of it being really redundant like captains energy gun belongs to him...). This ultimately goes nowhere and i even believe that he is going to resolve the ticket as he doesnt respond after hearing my IC justification and some other points (to be revealed further) while dealing with this very long ahelp that took over half of my round I didnt want to spend the entire time locked away so i still go out helping implant crew and "capture" revs while walking around which is where "the majority of [their] say logs being threats" comes from. The only "threat" i recall being told that i said was when i told HOS on SECURITY radio roundstart to rough up greytide just to say something to them and also asking revs to leave bridge while i was getting bwoinked since i couldnt put effort into making sure they werent stealing everything not bolted down. I will elaborate more in the next section but what more can i do to RP with the crew while im getting bwoinked and trying to stay alive while participating actively and not hide in a locker during revs ? The back and forth eventually turned into the admin messaging me the ban reason and saying that I can argue with headmins on forums about it despite not saying anything about my IC AND OOC justifications for my actions and being the reason i cant participate in the round but still adding it into the ban reason ? I also believe that the rev situation happened before i went to sec the first time but I dont know for sure but if logs show then it gives MUCH stronger IC justification for everything

Why you think you should be unbanned: I understand that the choice i make as captain are held under high standards even compared to regular sec. This is why i always make sure to have good IC justification for all drastic actions i take including when it comes to the gear i grab consistently and even the gear i grab inconsistently. Firstly, lets go over every single item again and discuss my justification for having them. Whether my justification is weak or not is i guess whats going to be discussed.
caps gun This belongs to the captain. However, I understand if more IC justification is needed on my part before getting the gun, I just ask what policy captain players have to follow (cap can get it roundstart, cap has to wait until blue, cap has to have actual confirmation of enemies on board)
egun (I spawn with this)
sechuds (Captain should have IC justification to be wearing this even on green alert, they are just regular sunglasses with a hud)
riot helmet
box of flashbangs (nonlethal way to protect myself if i am attacked unexpectedly and i cant get a dragnet out fast enough)
Dragnet (nonlethal faster way to stop an assailant if i am engaging defensively)
hand tele (x2) (I spawn with this, second hand tele belongs to RD so i put it in safe for him, if this is using too much meta knowledge on LRP i can stop but i believed that knowing commonly tided places isnt metaknowledge (which is why half the crew is allowed to make meta jokes about storage rooms getting raided roundstart)
pepper spray (basic self defense does captain even need justification to carry this with him? if so i can provide)
flash (same as pepper spray but even more ridiculous because like every department gets a flash and also are available everywhere)
medkit (if i need to apply emergency aid to myself or a crewmember and we are too far from medbay)
fire axe (already explained above, made a deal with HOS so they dont sneak into brdige and burn fireaxe themselves, also safe is accessible as i intentionllay had code hidden in bridge)

Even though I am under scrutiny during rounds, I believed that admins atleast respected my captain enough to let me know if Im taking too much gamer gear, which is why most of my admin notes / interactions / bwoinks come from my actions during the round instead of me holding onto a medkit flash and pepper spray... Ive gotten notes for powergaming in the past but I dont know if you can use those notes as they are from me spawning as station engineer in order to rob all access and hard tide sec and armory every single round. I realized that it was dumb and if i wanted gear within reason i should play captain and also learn how to lead crew through shifts. I cant say for certain about my captain notes when it comes to gear but
1. I did not rob any other heads of their gear
2. the warden did not react to me taking a dragnet from the armory. OOC I know that i cant take IC action for warden politely asking me to return armory guns (although it would be very dumb considering it was revs).

I believe that I was banned more for my actions and the "rule 12" violation is just a bandaid over it but if I took action as captain that admins are not happy about admins know that they can always talk to me to hear my justification, and if i am in the wrong i have no problem with taking punishment (this has happened multiple times with admins giving me short bwoinks asking for quick justification and leaving me alone afterwards) , but this conversation felt very one sided which is why im bringing all of this over to the forums to atleast get clarification. I also didnt take any action during the round which would warrant a ban as i got bwoinked VERY early but then was accused of only walking around to powergame when im trying to focus on the ahelp and a rev round.

When i play captain, my character is a hyper loyal Nanotrasen bootlicker that needs to run a successful shift or their job is in jeopardy. I would like to be unbanned because (considering the ban reason) I dont believe I acted in a way that warranted a 3 day ban considering everything above. I deleted the "positive player reference" part but I have responded positively to every note i got. I stopped spamtiding on station engineer and when im told about better interpretations of rules and how it relates to me playing captain i always listen and I am always ready to give justification which is why despite my rocky start i am able to consistently play captain and the shifts dont spiral too bad. I am confused as to why i was given such a big ban after such a one sided conversation after such an unremarkable reason. Im always open to admin remarks on my gameplay because I want to know if im breaking rules and how i can not do it in the future.

Finally, although the ban for the reason that its given now is complete BS, I would also like my notes edited to be more specific as "powergame" is vague (to the point where notes about me tiding as engineer to get armory gear is being used as part of a ban reason when i grabbed things out of the security locker room.
Anything else we should know: Could the other admin (possibly headmin) that the admin was talking about discussing the issue with come in this thread? I would just like to hear what they have to say and their justification for the ban too since they are implied to be a major party

[Timberpoes]

Rule 12 is a tricky beast to tame. The latest commentary that I'm aware of on Rule 12 can be found in viewtopic.php?f=85&t=32172

There are three key posts from the above thread, crossing 3 different headmin terms, that I feel are useful to highlight.

The first post was from one of the three headmins responsible for the creation of Rule 12. This post is not authortative on Rule 12 today, but it is authoritatative on Rule 12 as it was intended.

Rule 12 is not a rule against powergaming, its a rule against "winning" at the expense of everyone's enjoyment.

The second post was from myself, a headmin at the time I made the post, re-affirming what Nameless has said an emphasising it's not Roleplay Rule 8 for LRP. It's not the gear you have but how you use it. Again, this was never put up as a formal resolution to the thread for reasons, and the formal ruling fell to the current term.

...

Rule 12 is not a rule on excessive powergaming. It is not RP Rule 8. It is a rule against playing-to-win, where such playstyles actively ruin other people's RP fun.

Which means if you play-to-win and create a shit ton of awesome RP in the process, you're good

...

If they take their loot and then start a campaign of validhunting every antag they can possibly find, round removing them systematically - We have a problem. And the problem isn't the loot, but the actions. If they take their loot and turn it into something interesting, like selling their services as a bodyguard, they're creating RP.

So we get to the current headmin team in closing out the policy thread stating the following which I believe applies to Rule 12 in general, even though the thread itself was about miners and lavaland loot.

... A play pattern that is negative however is using that gear to proactively and commonly hunt for antagonists with the goal of removing them from the round and "winning" with your inflated loot sourced power level - alternatively, having the loot on you isn't a rule 12 issue, using it to be shitty and make the game less fun for everyone can be.

This makes Rule 12 technically quite complex. It is not Roleplay Rule 8. It is not a general prohibition on powergaming across the LRP servers.

It's a prohibition on play-to-win gameplay; the focus being on what you do with your one-man-walking-arsenal more than the fact you have a bunch of items. The wording of the rule itself - "Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules" - focuses on the actions ruining the purpose of the game (RP fun) for other people. If you don't ruin the purpose of the game for others, by its own wording you haven't fallen under Rule 12.

Finally, rule 12 Precedent 2 states:

Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.

This precedent can conflict with the idea that Rule 12 is not about what you've got, but instead about how you use it. The precedent focuses primarily on not what you're going to do with the items, but what reason you have them in the first place. On a technical level, you could fall foul of that precedent without ever ruining RP fun for anyone else on the server, simply by virtue that you gathered too many items for poor IC reasons.

I don't believe there's enough background information to assert that it is a rule against powergaming or even excessive powergaming without extra clarification from the current headmin team.

And ultimately this commentary is NOT going to make this appeal easier to resolve, because Rule 12 is still a fledgling rule that tackles a very esoteric concept.

[TheLoLSwat]

Rule 12 is a tricky beast to tame. The latest commentary that I'm aware of on Rule 12 can be found in viewtopic.php?f=85&t=32172

There are three key posts from the above thread, crossing 3 different headmin terms, that I feel are useful to highlight.

The first post was from one of the three headmins responsible for the creation of Rule 12. This post is not authortative on Rule 12 today, but it is authoritatative on Rule 12 as it was intended.

Rule 12 is not a rule against powergaming, its a rule against "winning" at the expense of everyone's enjoyment.

The second post was from myself, a headmin at the time I made the post, re-affirming what Nameless has said an emphasising it's not Roleplay Rule 8 for LRP. It's not the gear you have but how you use it. Again, this was never put up as a formal resolution to the thread for reasons, and the formal ruling fell to the current term.

...

Rule 12 is not a rule on excessive powergaming. It is not RP Rule 8. It is a rule against playing-to-win, where such playstyles actively ruin other people's RP fun.

Which means if you play-to-win and create a shit ton of awesome RP in the process, you're good

...

If they take their loot and then start a campaign of validhunting every antag they can possibly find, round removing them systematically - We have a problem. And the problem isn't the loot, but the actions. If they take their loot and turn it into something interesting, like selling their services as a bodyguard, they're creating RP.

So we get to the current headmin team in closing out the policy thread stating the following which I believe applies to Rule 12 in general, even though the thread itself was about miners and lavaland loot.

... A play pattern that is negative however is using that gear to proactively and commonly hunt for antagonists with the goal of removing them from the round and "winning" with your inflated loot sourced power level - alternatively, having the loot on you isn't a rule 12 issue, using it to be shitty and make the game less fun for everyone can be.

This makes Rule 12 technically quite complex. It is not Roleplay Rule 8. It is not a general prohibition on powergaming across the LRP servers.

It's a prohibition on play-to-win gameplay; the focus being on what you do with your one-man-walking-arsenal more than the fact you have a bunch of items. The wording of the rule itself - "Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules" - focuses on the actions ruining the purpose of the game (RP fun) for other people. If you don't ruin the purpose of the game for others, by its own wording you haven't fallen under Rule 12.

Finally, rule 12 Precedent 2 states:

Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.

This precedent can conflict with the idea that Rule 12 is not about what you've got, but instead about how you use it. The precedent focuses primarily on not what you're going to do with the items, but what reason you have them in the first place. On a technical level, you could fall foul of that precedent without ever ruining RP fun for anyone else on the server, simply by virtue that you gathered too many items for poor IC reasons.

I don't believe there's enough background information to assert that it is a rule against powergaming or even excessive powergaming without extra clarification from the current headmin team.

And ultimately this commentary is NOT going to make this appeal easier to resolve, because Rule 12 is still a fledgling rule that tackles a very esoteric concept.

I do understand where the "playing to win" distinction comes in. But if you look at my actions throughout the round with an OOC lens i dont even take action that would give me the best chance of winning (such as going for carapace instead of riot armor when riot is 10000x better on rev rounds, or spam flashbanging cargo and cuffing everyone while spamming implant orders in order to interrogate one of them for revhead name. I simply grabbed items i am way more comfortable having than not (flash, pepperspray) and a hat i thought looked cool (riot helmet). I dont think I am playing to win just for holding onto cool captains gear and a few select items from security during a rev round

[Pandarsenic]

► Show Spoiler

Some borderline peanut-y bits of policy/precedent info

1. It is a known science fact that the Antique laser is in a display case for a reason. Only a bitch-made Captain takes the Antique Laser before (a) someone has tried to kill them, or (b) someone else has tried (successfully or not) to take the laser for themselves. Most(?) admins agree that taking the laser and doing nothing else isn't a rule violation, if you don't do anything else sketchy, but if you do anything else sketchy you're immediately going to get "Oh, and you're the kind of captain who takes the Antique Laser at roundstart."

2. If you're not using the traitor objectives (wearing the CE magboots as CE, breaking windows with the fireaxe, exploring space or deputizing someone else to with the hand tele, etc.) you should probably leave them alone. To work, the game requires that we not compete with the traitors (who are now guaranteed to show up in every round but the greenest of greenshifts) to make their objectives impossible preemptively.

3. Not the banning admin but I don't think I'm the only one who will tell you that doing like any 2 of the 8ish things you did wouldn't be any problem at all, but doing all of them at once and especially stashing two antag objectives in an obscure location is not a good look as a collective Thing (even if what the HOS wanted to do was even worse).

Important Part Here

Your side of the story:
...
While putting it in the safe the HOS asks me to deep fry the bridge fireaxe. I knew exactly what he meant and agreed with his OOC reasoning, but IC there was no real justification other than metagaming so i instead offer to put the axe in the safe if i can fit it, which i am able to do. After locking the safe and leaving the code accessible (so i can grab the nuke disk before shuttle gets on board is my IC reasoning, i dont want to powergame the disk by putting it in an inaccessible location is my OOC reason).
...
After dealing with a few tiders breaking into bridge (dont think this is relevant but if it is i can go in depth) I go to security.
...
I go to the sec lockers and grab pepperspray. A flash is also picked up but i cant recall if it was from bridge or security locker room. Regardless, I believe that captain is well within his IC right when a blue alert is called to get pepper spray and flash a concealed last resort self defense option. I then go to the armory and get the following items
...
I believe around after this point im dealing with a rev round but i get an ahelp pretty early into the round.
...
i still go out helping implant crew and "capture" revs while walking around which is where "the majority of [their] say logs being threats" comes from. The only "threat" i recall being told that i said was when i told HOS on SECURITY radio roundstart to rough up greytide just to say something to them and also asking revs to leave bridge while i was getting bwoinked since i couldnt put effort into making sure they werent stealing everything not bolted down. I will elaborate more in the next section but what more can i do to RP with the crew while im getting bwoinked and trying to stay alive while participating actively and not hide in a locker during revs ? The back and forth eventually turned into the admin messaging me the ban reason and saying that I can argue with headmins on forums about it despite not saying anything about my IC AND OOC justifications for my actions and being the reason i cant participate in the round but still adding it into the ban reason ? I also believe that the rev situation happened before i went to sec the first time but I dont know for sure but if logs show then it gives MUCH stronger IC justification for everything

I highlighted a few parts I think might warrant a good look. You should be able to pull logs from https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nd-196744/ or https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/196744 - your most relevant ones will be Game+Telecomms logs (communication) and Attack logs. If you can show that you fought tiders before you armed up fully, that there was good reason to believe there was a revolution from the information you had, that you had significant amounts of non-threat communication, etc., I recommend posting the relevant attack and local-chat or telecomms logs to this thread, as these would help your case significantly.

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nd-196744/
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/196744

[Timberpoes]

And to be clear I'm not making a commentary on your appeal itself.

I'm just aiming to provide context for Rule 12, what its goals as a rule are/were, and where it may or may not apply. My hope is that it may help you focus your talking points, since nobody's honestly reading the wall of text from your opening post without their cerebral fluid leaking out of their nose.

It's totes up to you to figure out if you can flex that extra information about Rule 12 to focus-target on why what you did wouldn't fall under Rule 12 in the way the ban reason mentions.

Or alternatively to have a lightbulb moment and realise you can't defend or justify your actions because the admin was right all along.

[TheLoLSwat]

Thank you two for the feedback, i could have organized it a lot better but I was worried about not being thorough enough.

Looking at the logs, a few things are cleared up.

1. "Continued with the round wandering around the station looking for trouble, with the majority of their say logs being threats" is a lie. Because my round was short and logs are available I can give an accurate recap of my telecom logs. I make a joke to HOS( ) and then offer help securing armory because of how understaffed she is ( ). I then tell felix that he has one more chance because i caught him attempting to break into the bridge two times by this point, and let him off both times ( ) . I then make a joke ( ) and respond to what crew is saying() . These 4 messages are my finding out and response to rev heads (and only revheads) (). Soon after revs died I told crew we didnt have to leave yet ( ) but by that point i was too deep in the bwoink. The only time i threatened crew consistently was when they were greytiding in bridge and i only used a threat after asking them to leave bridge multiple times which command can do

2. I have clear cut evidence that I am not "playing to win". ( ) ( ) Although a ling, Leah came forward and revealed herself in order to get a deal, her being able to openly interact with crew, but she has to essentially work for me and provide service in benefit of the crew. This is pretty big because despite being given a free way to "win" i instead go the RP route for more round conflict and engagement (i even announce to crew that a changeling would be joining the crew and although they are "valid" (used better wording), Leah is free to defend herself. ( ) ). Another piece of evidence that I am not playing to win is after we finish the revs I tell the crew that we can stay for a bit longer before i call a shuttle vote (as opposed to speeding shuttle because massive loss of life that usually happens with revs) because we did well only targeting the revheads ( ) If i was playing to win i wouldve speedran shuttle. The third piece of evidence is that i wasnt "playing to win" with my gear choices. If i was, I wouldve opted for riot armor which wouldve been infinitely better for the situation (revs) especially considering how it makes you shove proof and has bonus melee protection. I also did not hide / space / cremate the armory guns after distributing them to only security or do other extremely powergamey tactics to win the round either, as I just arrested / implanted / killed obvious revs that were trying to kill me and i couldnt implant as any captain would do during a rev round. I grabbed some gear and loot but i only really took what i was comfortable with / thought would be cool for the round and not what would give me the best chance to win which is rule 12 breaking. Also there are multiple instances of me not brigging (which i would consider "winning" from a sec perspective) after bridge is broken into and trespassed like 9 different times.

3. this is where i found out about revs ( ) and this is where around where i was getting attacked on bridge ( ). I was for sure in armory before this and had other altercations but they were not as big and i didnt really feel too threatened. I cant seem to find logs that have me picking up things and dont know if logs dont carry that because its too specific.

4. A point I am seeing on discord too that i hope admins can chime in on, should admin candidates even be handling rule 12 cases like this ? ()

[Itseasytosee2me]

Banning admin here - Thanks for the appeal, The round in question is 196744

I'm sorry that I may not have made myself clear earlier, but the reason that you have been banned is not for any one interaction in particular, but your general approach to the game. It was a fault of mine to cite "power gaming" as a ban reason, and it doesn't really perfectly describe your actions either.
You have been banned because you exhibit a playstyle round after round that indicates you only care about finding antagonists and beating antagonists. You have broken the captain's case open to get the antique round-start every single round that I have seen you roll captain, and then contribute nothing to the round after the fact except for the occasional flex of authority, or threat to cut someone's legs off. This is not how captain is meant to be played, but your attraction to the role regardless seems to me like you only care about getting the gamer gear so you can better fight antagonists. I have the impression that you would rather be doing the same thing as an assistant had you not already noted excessive greytiding.
You argued in ahelps that playing like this was justified because you are a captain trying to defend their space station. The captain is supposed to have responsibilities and make an attempt to keep the station in some sort of coherence, this is the reason we don't
This is a repeat problem, and you have two distinct notes on your record about similar behavior.

Furthermore, you have a ban on Beestation for a very similar reason.

Poor low-roleplay self-serving mindset gameplay, such as Tiding, Powergaming, Validhunting and Not doing their job. Please review the rules thoroughly this time before coming back.

It might be that you know what you are doing is against the rules and makes you look like a massive twat, but I find it more likely that you don't understand why what you are doing is wrong, and simply need an adjustment of mindset. This game is a lot more fun when you stop focusing on yourself so much, and try your best to have meaningful interactions with others. I understand the type of server culture you are familiar with. I come from hippie too.
The point of this ban, ultimately, is not as a punishment. It was made because I wanted to encourage you to expand your horizons. There are plenty of members of security on sybil who kick antag ass but still contribute to the rounds of both their fellow crewmates and the antagonist they are hunting. You are not improving the rounds of anyone, and you with your current playstyle is a detriment to the server as a whole. I don't want you gone from the server forever, and I don't want you to tweak how you play until you can skirt just along the edge of what is and isn't a rule violation, I want you to do better.

Here's all the violation of rule 12/1 that accumulate into your ban all put together (individually, they are worthy of a small note at best, together they build a toxic playstyle)
- Going out of your way to counteract multiple traitor objectives without any instigation
- Taking both of the hand teleporters and only using one of them
- Breaking the antique laser gun out of its case round start consecutively
- Wandering around the station wordlessly looking for things to fight.
- Loading up in the armory unprovoked round after round.
- Toxicity to other players

I've also taken the moment to highlight some chat excerpts from the round prior to the one I bwoinked you in that further indicate this playstyle. (196740)

Code: Select all

(Your behavior in game)
08:12:14	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "what"
08:12:18	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "he is an enemy of nanotrasen"
08:12:19	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "your boss"
08:12:23	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "we are instructed to kill them"
08:12:25	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "literally told to"
08:12:33	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "you are a retard leave me alone"
08:12:48	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) "sorry i dont talk to retards"
-
(Your behavior in deadchat)
TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "what did i do this round"
08:35:10	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "that deserves jobban"
08:35:11	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "tell me"
08:35:19	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "yea cuz you know youre wrong lol"
08:35:25	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "everything i do i have a good IC reason for"
08:35:49	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "if that is true"
08:35:51	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "i wouldve been banned"
08:35:57	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "i get ahelped all the time"
08:36:01	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "surely i would be banned if i was actually breaking rules"
08:36:15	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "keep crying baby"

If you can find any meaningful interaction in that round that improved the quality of the round for another player in it I will unban you on the spot, but I'm pretty certain you won't be able to find them.
Here is my update to the ban reason:

Rule 12, Extremely self centered style of play round to round, has been noted about this before. Went out of their way to make traitor objective items inaccessible unprovoked. Roundstart takes the antique gun out of its case. Provides no meaningful interaction with anyone throughout the course of the captain rounds, spending their time hunting antagonists and spot executing them. Your playstyle is a detriment to the fun of the server you play on, reflect on this and improve it.

If you have issues with any of the wording here, it can be adjusted.
Otherwise this appeal is denied.

You are able to request a headmin review if you are unsatisfied.

[TheLoLSwat]

TLDR; just find which points you think are the strongest to see my response

I'm sorry that I may not have made myself clear earlier, but the reason that you have been banned is not for any one interaction in particular, but your general approach to the game. It was a fault of mine to cite "power gaming" as a ban reason, and it doesn't really perfectly describe your actions either.

If the ban reason is my general approach to the game, why lean so hard into that specific round in the ban reason? Only to turn around and move the goalposts because i didnt break rule 12 that round in any way that warrants the excessive ban i recieved. Are you sure you are familiar enough with rule 12 as an admin candidate when its a rule that even GMs (in this thread, no less) need to put effort into discussing

You have been banned because you exhibit a playstyle round after round that indicates you only care about finding antagonists and beating antagonists. You have broken the captain's case open to get the antique round-start every single round that I have seen you roll captain, and then contribute nothing to the round after the fact except for the occasional flex of authority, or threat to cut someone's legs off.

Firstly, I do care about catching antagonists. I am the captain of a space station and just got a report that the wizard federation / syndicate / chageling hivemind targeted my station for a deep railing and its up to me to not only keep us all alive but also generate a profit for my bosses, so yes i am going to be hounding on my security and paranoid and checking in on all my departments to make sure they are being productive and supporting nanotrasen. I also believe you are just not telling the truth with the last point. I threaten people that commit capital crimes with cruel and unusual punishments, but usually offer gulag / perma as an alternative if they werent trolling too much of the crew. I do this for RP and engagement because it would tell a better story if the traitor locked himself in armory and had a last stand because captain removed an arm from them after catching them for murdering the CE and stealing the magboots than it would if i had just lasered him 12 times for hacking into my office and trying to kidnap renault. I will also always lead the crew to the best of my abilities when a stationwide threat that NEEDS captain intervention presents itself (blob, nuclear operatives, revs, level 7 bio, murderboning tot, malf AI even though i am very prone to tilt and will complain i will still instruct crewmembers to do things like deconstruct r walls around sat and hit a frontal assault while that is happening).

I also think its worth mentioning that only two rounds (which you were there for) ( round 196738 ) before the one in question i was fully on board with the syndicate v nanotrasen basketball idea, being the first to organize signups and attending the game and offering the co-captain a seat when she arrived in the middle of it. I believe I was one of the most participating people in that entire event and if i consistently "play to win", I wouldve spam flashbanged the nuclear ops and declared war. I can flex and bend my character if it means that a lot of crew can have a memorable and engaging round.

This is not how captain is meant to be played, but your attraction to the role regardless seems to me like you only care about getting the gamer gear so you can better fight antagonists. I have the impression that you would rather be doing the same thing as an assistant had you not already noted excessive greytiding.

Captain is one of the most vague roles in space station 13. You are given the keys to every single door and told to make sure the station doesnt collapse (the one guaranteed thing to happen). How is captain supposed to be played? My character is fiercly loyal to nanotrasen but she still enjoys doing captain work. Things like setting up SM when engineers arent around, completing access changes when HOP is busy, opening doors for crew, getting things from other departments the fastest because i have the access and even dragging crits and deads to medbay to make sure they can still enjoy the round. Its fun to do those things and actually see the station efficient. Its fun to stop an antag thats prepping to do unthinkable things to the station and cutting a deal where he can be on the station but he needs a tracking implant > loses his uplink because I want more people generating profit for me and NT. Its even fun (although very salt inducing) when the greytide and I that have been escalating our conflict evenly throughout the round have that one last shootout in brig right before the shuttle docs and i get my comeuppance to end the story.

You argued in ahelps that playing like this was justified because you are a captain trying to defend their space station. The captain is supposed to have responsibilities and make an attempt to keep the station in some sort of coherence, this is the reason we don't

As I said before, in that specific round, I believe I was justified in carrying the basic sec gear that i was carrying as captain because it was a revolutionary round. I had a very fair amount of gear if you are looking in the context of powergaming. I make sure the SM gets set up almost every single shift (even setting it up myself if no engineers are available, although this only occurs often on bagil) and I try to make sure that nothing can stop the general ebb and flow of rounds whether its murderboning antagonists or fixing a breach (or delegating it) I feel like admins know how hard this is, considering how often they only bwoink me to quickly get my side of something that im in the middle of doing, or to get a word in discord about an action i have taken, and letting me know if i could be interpreting something better or if i shouldnt do something as captain. I even began sending faxes to centcomm asking admins ICly what they think of the possibility of a shuttle considering (the current situation) after the displeasure was expressed about my recall voting system (which i ALSO got feedback for from an retired admin( ) ). I dont think its fair that because you dont agree with my playstyle and rp style as captain you think i dont care about it and i would do the same thing as station engineer or assistant if i could.

This is a repeat problem, and you have two distinct notes on your record about similar behavior.

Furthermore, you have a ban on Beestation for a very similar reason

These are both very valid points and I will take the time to address them now.

For the two distinct notes, if you are talking about me tiding as a station engineer to get access and get into security. This is consistent with my ban reason on Beestation (you know that not for my captain play because i had like 3 rounds played on bee after a very long hiatus from space station 13. After coming to tg and getting a note for similar behavior i took the time to review the rules (being a very longtime player of hippie and ss13 in general I thought my grasp of the rules were solid and didnt put as much thought into reviewing them as i shouldve when i returned up to this point) and either move on from space station 13 or come up with a better playstyle where I can have fun while still not doing things to get myself banned. I then got the Idea of bringing back my playstyle from hippie (authoritarian NT biggest fan captain) but tweaking it to work on tgstation. I had a rocky start again adjusting to first new security and the new captain (policywise and new serverwise) and after a while and a few bwoinks that led to discussions i felt that I had a good enough handle on how far to go with the authoritarian captain both IC and OOC. Getting comments along the lines of "Lisa [insult] but they arent actually too bad at captain" and people IC being able to come up to me and give me OOC information IC and trusting me enough to handle it IC (if i was actually vilified for constant rule 12 breaking i dont think another staticnamer would trust me enough with this information) (https://prnt.sc/VRljGHqE8yHj ) ( https://prnt.sc/vGWLL-2OjGOP ), but i digress.

going to try to get through this a bit faster since i realize just how much im dragging

It might be that you know what you are doing is against the rules and makes you look like a massive twat, but I find it more likely that you don't understand why what you are doing is wrong, and simply need an adjustment of mindset. This game is a lot more fun when you stop focusing on yourself so much, and try your best to have meaningful interactions with others. I understand the type of server culture you are familiar with. I come from hippie too.

I dont believe what I'm doing is wrong, but captain role is up to a lot of interpretation. You arent even given a funnel to channel all your energy into like xenobiologists and chemists, If im making bad judgement calls and interpretations im happy to be bwoinked and discuss it, which has happened multiple times but I dont get banned because its handled IC and correct escalation was followed for both parties (as long as i revive and all that). Hippiestation was the frame of reference for Lisa Green on tgstation, but I am not familiar with that "culture". I was doxxed, spammed with the hard R daily, and threatened every day for robusting people in 2d spessmans. Just hearing that I am getting back into ss13 caused members of hippie to crash sybil multiple times over. I do not with to be associated with them culturally.

The point of this ban, ultimately, is not as a punishment. It was made because I wanted to encourage you to expand your horizons. There are plenty of members of security on sybil who kick antag ass but still contribute to the rounds of both their fellow crewmates and the antagonist they are hunting. You are not improving the rounds of anyone, and you with your current playstyle is a detriment to the server as a whole. I don't want you gone from the server forever, and I don't want you to tweak how you play until you can skirt just along the edge of what is and isn't a rule violation, I want you to do better.

I can respect where you come from in this point. But i believe that my horizons already have been expanded into a unique character. Gloating about having a very successful 80 minute shift in character because you know a promotion is coming shortly before escape gets blown up as soon as the shuttle touches is a part of the character. Of course some of it is OOC disguised but everyone has moments when RPing when they say something ICly but is meant to be OOC. From the days of spawning station engineer and not knowing how to do SM but sprinting with engi tools to break into captains office > teleporter room > backside of sec > locker room > armory I have gotten better. I managed to make my character both fun and not complete NRP scumbagging. There is still plenty i need to learn to do in order to not just walk around the halls checking in on departments all the time, and i could get better at the timings (such as what i believe is the second note, with the RD kendra and my securitrons), but I think its not going too bad

Here's all the violation of rule 12/1 that accumulate into your ban all put together (individually, they are worthy of a small note at best, together they build a toxic playstyle)
- Going out of your way to counteract multiple traitor objectives without any instigation
- Taking both of the hand teleporters and only using one of them
- Breaking the antique laser gun out of its case round start consecutively
- Wandering around the station wordlessly looking for things to fight.
- Loading up in the armory unprovoked round after round.
- Toxicity to other players

- Going out of your way to counteract multiple traitor objectives without any instigation (The hand teleporters belong to captain and RD, I believe that putting hand tele in a secure location while waiting for RD to come forth is an IC justifiable action, but if not I woul understand a small note for this)
- Taking both of the hand teleporters and only using one of them (copy and paste from above)
- Breaking the antique laser gun out of its case round start consecutively (This is probably the most valid small note depending on the admin, but its tricky because while it is a strong gamer item its also captains personal gun that he has a right to like RD has access to their telearmor and CMO has access to the OP biohood even if they have no reason for it)
- Wandering around the station wordlessly looking for things to fight. (This is also not true and a subjective take, you didnt even think to ask why im patrolling the hallways and I always will respond to people that need something, I only dont enjoy it when people start randomly following and spam pointing at me, also dont believe this is noteworth)
- Loading up in the armory unprovoked round after round. (the only "gun" i consistently get from armory is a single dragnet, there is nothing else that is armory exclusive that I take every single round, I dont believe this is even noteworthy in context)
- Toxicity to other players (this is subjective, and also the first time im hearing about specifically behavioral problems, as most notes come from speedrun tiding to get gear from armory and caps, dont think this is deserving of a note unless i have consistent instances of making poor judgement calls as captain, or being enough of an asshole that it needs OOC intervention)

I've also taken the moment to highlight some chat excerpts from the round prior to the one I bwoinked you in that further indicate this playstyle. (196740)

The IC logs are from Nanotrasen having an event where a team of interns (who are NUCLEAR OPERATIVES) are sent to the ship and are implied to be clueless about the workings of a space station. As such, one of the interns kept pressing me over killing someone else on the station, despite the fact that the person was an enemy of Nanotrasen and we had specific orders to stop them in the centcomm official update. It turns out that we were both roleplaying because he wasnt actually from nanotrasen so he was playing dumb and i was getting frustrated because of everything going on in the chaotic 7 captain round. Shame on you for taking it out of context to make me look worse. I will admit i was very frustrated in deadchat and snapped on a random. A better way to say the point i was trying to make is that whenever I take drastic measure i make sure that there was good escalation (IC reason). I dont think im necessarily bragging about tip toeing the rule line, I was asking the other guy what the fuck i do that could get me banned so i can call him an idiot and tell him my reasoning for doing whatever happened, and providing reasonings and whatnot. These were also taken during a psuedo event round that ( i think but could be wrong) you yourself hosted or participated in

If you can find any meaningful interaction in that round that improved the quality of the round for another player in it I will unban you on the spot, but I'm pretty certain you won't be able to find them.

Simple. My interaction with Leah Anderson is not only a unique RP interaction that only captain the captain can accomplish , but improved the quality of the round for multiple players. She felt comfortable enough to RP with me and surrendered herself as a changeling and offered her services if we accepted her as a friend. She implants herself with a tracking implant and i accept her in open arms. I also see that you only added this because you know that you bwoinked me very early into the round and couldnt participate with the round too much as I was busy staying alive and talking to you. ( ) ( ) ( )
Are you going to stand by your word or are you going to move the goalposts and say "uhh its not meaningful enough".

Here is my update to the ban reason:

Rule 12, Extremely self centered style of play round to round, has been noted about this before. Went out of their way to make traitor objective items inaccessible unprovoked. Roundstart takes the antique gun out of its case. Provides no meaningful interaction with anyone throughout the course of the captain rounds, spending their time hunting antagonists and spot executing them. Your playstyle is a detriment to the fun of the server you play on, reflect on this and improve it.

Again. This is not objectively true. if you are talking about the hand tele i put in the safe I already explained my reasoning for it, I also leave the code to the safe available either in a folder on the bridge or in the filing cabinet in the bridge or my office so someone can find it. I even held a mini event as captain where i allowed crew to greytide and if any of them could get into the safe with the all access and the nuke disk they can keep both and someone was able to win fairly quickly into the shift considering the circumstances. I also don't believe that it is fair that you ban me for a different reason and when i come to the forums to appeal you flip the reason completely to "general rule 12 breaker" without even responding to any of my points in my thesis essay of an appeal.

If you have issues with any of the wording here, it can be adjusted.
Otherwise this appeal is denied.

You are able to request a headmin review if you are unsatisfied.

Denying an appeal in your first response to the thread as the banning admin without so much as responding to any of my points makes me feel like you are using bias in your reasoning, which would also make a lot of other things make sense about this bwoink + ban appeal considering you remember me from hippie and had that version of Lisa Green in mind while handling my bwoink. I couldnt even argue the "true" ban reason in the bwoink because, again, you banned me for a completely different reason including having sechuds, pepperspray, and an energy gun as the captain. captain SPAWNS with an egun in his locker. I would like headmin and just other admin and people in general to give actual feedback and responses to any of the points ive made in these 3 different posts. I know i am typing up a storm but rule 12 is complex and im not the most articulate.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I'll give you my thoughts on all the points you make here.

If the ban reason is my general approach to the game, why lean so hard into that specific round in the ban reason? Only to turn around and move the goalposts because i didnt break rule 12 that round in any way that warrants the excessive ban i recieved. Are you sure you are familiar enough with rule 12 as an admin candidate when its a rule that even GMs (in this thread, no less) need to put effort into discussing

The round in which I banned you was a climatic moment after witnessing how you behave as captain in previous rounds. I decided to just start watching you at the beginning of the round, and see just how you generally play the round. What I saw was not indicative of a good playstyle.
I've gotten multiple ahleps about your behavior, and I haven't seen you do a single interaction that improved the course of someone's round.

I'm very familiar with rule 12 and policy as whole. I know what it's intentions were when it was implemented. This ban is a reflection of those intentions.

Firstly, I do care about catching antagonists. I am the captain of a space station and just got a report that the wizard federation / syndicate / chageling hivemind targeted my station for a deep railing and its up to me to not only keep us all alive but also generate a profit for my bosses, so yes i am going to be hounding on my security and paranoid and checking in on all my departments to make sure they are being productive and supporting nanotrasen. I also believe you are just not telling the truth with the last point. I threaten people that commit capital crimes with cruel and unusual punishments, but usually offer gulag / perma as an alternative if they werent trolling too much of the crew. I do this for RP and engagement because it would tell a better story if the traitor locked himself in armory and had a last stand because captain removed an arm from them after catching them for murdering the CE and stealing the magboots than it would if i had just lasered him 12 times for hacking into my office and trying to kidnap renault. I will also always lead the crew to the best of my abilities when a stationwide threat that NEEDS captain intervention presents itself (blob, nuclear operatives, revs, level 7 bio, murderboning tot, malf AI even though i am very prone to tilt and will complain i will still instruct crewmembers to do things like deconstruct r walls around sat and hit a frontal assault while that is happening).

You can play an authoritarian bootlicker captain. You can play a captain that really cares about hunting down traitors. I've seen captains and heads of security who rule with an iron first and driving story telling and meaning out of a round. You do not do these things. If I asked another player to describe your playstyle they would not say, "That's the captain who is staunchly loyal to Nanotrasen, they go around the station and do check ups and insure loyalty around the station. They are harsh, but their true intention is to keep us safe and profitable," they would probably describe you along the lines of, "Thats the captain that gears up roundstart and spends their whole shift looking for valids."
The former is a great character, the latter is unacceptable. If you want people to think of you as the former, you need to adjust your playstyle.

Captain is one of the most vague roles in space station 13. You are given the keys to every single door and told to make sure the station doesnt collapse (the one guaranteed thing to happen). How is captain supposed to be played? My
character is fiercly loyal to nanotrasen but she still enjoys doing captain work. Things like setting up SM when engineers arent around, completing access changes when HOP is busy, opening doors for crew, getting things from other departments the fastest because i have the access and even dragging crits and deads to medbay to make sure they can still enjoy the round. Its fun to do those things and actually see the station efficient. Its fun to stop an antag thats prepping to do unthinkable things to the station and cutting a deal where he can be on the station but he needs a tracking implant > loses his uplink because I want more people generating profit for me and NT. Its even fun (although very salt inducing) when the greytide and I that have been escalating our conflict evenly throughout the round have that one last shootout in brig right before the shuttle docs and i get my comeuppance to end the story.

Captain is indeed a vague character, that does not give you the excuse to act the way you do round after round. I know you have the potential to do better. This ban is a wake up call.

As I said before, in that specific round, I believe I was justified in carrying the basic sec gear that i was carrying as captain because it was a revolutionary round. I had a very fair amount of gear if you are looking in the context of powergaming. I make sure the SM gets set up almost every single shift (even setting it up myself if no engineers are available, although this only occurs often on bagil) and I try to make sure that nothing can stop the general ebb and flow of rounds whether its murderboning antagonists or fixing a breach (or delegating it) I feel like admins know how hard this is, considering how often they only bwoink me to quickly get my side of something that im in the middle of doing, or to get a word in discord about an action i have taken, and letting me know if i could be interpreting something better or if i shouldnt do something as captain. I even began sending faxes to centcomm asking admins ICly what they think of the possibility of a shuttle considering (the current situation) after the displeasure was expressed about my recall voting system (which i ALSO got feedback for from an retired admin. I dont think its fair that because you dont agree with my playstyle and rp style as captain you think i dont care about it and i would do the same thing as station engineer or assistant if i could.

I do appreciate your desire to improve. I would have just noted you had you not gotten one before. I'm hoping the message gets through to you/

people IC being able to come up to me and give me OOC information IC and trusting me enough to handle it IC (if i was actually vilified for constant rule 12 breaking i dont think another staticnamer would trust me enough with this information), but i digress.

Simple. My interaction with Leah Anderson is not only a unique RP interaction that only captain the captain can accomplish , but improved the quality of the round for multiple players. She felt comfortable enough to RP with me and surrendered herself as a changeling and offered her services if we accepted her as a friend. She implants herself with a tracking implant and i accept her in open arms. I also see that you only added this because you know that you bwoinked me very early into the round and couldnt participate with the round too much as I was busy staying alive and talking to you.

I'll go over the ling thing now. I was personally observing when this interaction occurred. You were standing inside the brig, the changeling was standing outside the brig. They reveled themselves as a ling by extending an armblade, you told them not to cause any trouble, and they ran off after the HOS implanted them.
This is not an interaction indicative of anything, and if anything goes against the character you are trying to build.

- Going out of your way to counteract multiple traitor objectives without any instigation (The hand teleporters belong to captain and RD, I believe that putting hand tele in a secure location while waiting for RD to come forth is an IC justifiable action, but if not I woul understand a small note for this)
- Taking both of the hand teleporters and only using one of them (copy and paste from above)
- Breaking the antique laser gun out of its case round start consecutively (This is probably the most valid small note depending on the admin, but its tricky because while it is a strong gamer item its also captains personal gun that he has a right to like RD has access to their telearmor and CMO has access to the OP biohood even if they have no reason for it)
- Wandering around the station wordlessly looking for things to fight. (This is also not true and a subjective take, you didnt even think to ask why im patrolling the hallways and I always will respond to people that need something, I only dont enjoy it when people start randomly following and spam pointing at me, also dont believe this is noteworth)
- Loading up in the armory unprovoked round after round. (the only "gun" i consistently get from armory is a single dragnet, there is nothing else that is armory exclusive that I take every single round, I dont believe this is even noteworthy in context)
- Toxicity to other players (this is subjective, and also the first time im hearing about specifically behavioral problems, as most notes come from speedrun tiding to get gear from armory and caps, dont think this is deserving of a note unless i have consistent instances of making poor judgement calls as captain, or being enough of an asshole that it needs OOC intervention)

There was no RD on the station, and you made no effort to signal to your other command staff that the teleporter was hidden. You did the same thing with the fire axe. This is generally considered a dick move, and it falls within the precedents of rule 4. With the toxicity, I was generally referring to your tendency to get heated OCC and deadchat, slinging alot of insults and generally being mean to people. If you are so inclined, I could find some more examples of this for you.

It turns out that we were both roleplaying because he wasnt actually from nanotrasen so he was playing dumb and i was getting frustrated because of everything going on in the chaotic 7 captain round. Shame on you for taking it out of context to make me look worse.

I assure you that these logs don't look any better as a conversation. The people you were talking to weren't being half as hostile as you were to them.

Denying an appeal in your first response to the thread as the banning admin without so much as responding to any of my points makes me feel like you are using bias in your reasoning, which would also make a lot of other things make sense about this bwoink + ban appeal considering you remember me from hippie and had that version of Lisa Green in mind while handling my bwoink. I couldnt even argue the "true" ban reason in the bwoink because, again, you banned me for a completely different reason including having sechuds, pepperspray, and an energy gun as the captain. captain SPAWNS with an egun in his locker. I would like headmin and just other admin and people in general to give actual feedback and responses to any of the points ive made in these 3 different posts. I know i am typing up a storm but rule 12 is complex and im not the most articulate.

If you are implying that I am biased against you because of past interaction or disagreement, I must deny it completely. I didn't even know who you are until about 2 days ago. Everything I know about you has come from your note history, what other admins told me they observed in you, and what I have witnessed of you personally. This is what I haved based my ban on.

3 days is a slap on the wrist, but its an increase in severity from a note. I encourage you to do the time and come back with a fresh mind and maybe a new perspective.

The captain wiki page has some good tips on what makes a good captain:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Captain

I'll notify the headmins that you want their review.

Edit: changed mention of a headmin ruling to a mention of a rule 4 precedent.

[san7890]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning. At the time of this post, the ban will have been lifted and the note corrected to show the amount of time the player was banned from the servers from. Only the length of the ban has been overturned, not the ban itself. We otherwise do not find anything wrong with the note post-appeal and that shall remain.