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sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:45 pm If a security officer crits and kills a botanist for literally growing weed, how is the conflict “over”? The botanist can absolutely retaliate and kill them once revived, unless there are outstanding circumstances (like if the botanist was resisting arrest lethally before, but we got no such circumstances in this example). Escalation policy was specifically changed this term to allow revenge killing over being wronged.
To the OP: many people don’t know this, but once an officer treats you with lethal force or abuses you, if it’s not strictly necessary and you weren’t being a griefing shithead, they void their metaprotections and you can now retaliate as if they were an ordinary player. I do this all the time and have never been bwoinked or noted for it.
Example 1: After breaking into engi, an officer arrests you for B&E. They see you also have a stolen baton. While processing you, they decide to beat you and break your legs. They then send you to gulag after fullstripping you, with a skirt on.
Once you get out you can now retaliate against them. How far you go is up to you, but at the very least you can do to the officer what they did to you, if not more (since they are the instigator here). I would be amazed if an admin took issue with murdering them for this.
Example 2: You kill a crewmember that was trying to kill you in self defense. Sec arrives on the scene, and the officers consider it murder and arrest you. They throw you in a brig cell for 10 minutes, but not before confiscating your toolbelt and insuls. You notice the officer loots your insuls for himself.
Guess what! You can now attack this officer later once you get out of jail! He voided his metaprotections the instant he stole your items without a valid reason. A valid reason would be: using them to commit a crime. But you never did that!
There are plenty more examples but you get the idea. The basic concept is this: sec are only allowed to punish crew through sec systems - the brig, the gulag, etc. Once they begin to punish you with beatings, theft, humiliation, etc., they void their metaprotections and enter the realm of a normal IC escalation conflict, and you’re allowed to retaliate according to the normal rules of escalation.
As for the redtider example - this officer also voids his metaprotections because he committed a crime of B&E! Officers are not above the law. Although they usually aren’t arrested for minor crimes like this, committing these crimes allows crew to treat them as normal crewmembers, and retaliate in proportion to the crime committed.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:10 am Escalation policy doesn't exist so a player can just walk up and crit someone for a shitty reason then claim "Escalation is over! I crit them! They legally can't fight back!"
Escalation policy ALSO doesn't exist so a player can steal items, start fights and keep the items just because they won. Stealing items from players for poor IC reason is continuing escalation up until the point the item is returned, and may also be a rule break.
But sec also have higher standards for dealing with intra-crew interactions in return. We expect them to deal with incidents nonlethally, we expect them to somehow break up fights between other non-antag crew members without breaking any of our core server rules in the process, you get the idea.
The goal is that non-antags let sec get on with their jobs, sec don't just go around executing every non-antag that gets into a fight with someone, and somewhere in the middle true blue antags take advantage of this to drive the shift's narrative forward.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fatal wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:24 am 95% of the time, any action that would let you kill security or command for, is something they are going to get noted / banned for
As admins, we generally prefer you to adminhelp bad play by security or command so that it doesn't become a pattern, if you kill them for it, there's no record of it and they just continue in a later round until the next vigilante comes along and then rounds turn into absolute shitshows because then security who haven't actually done anything wrong get targeted, and people not involved decide to get some of the action too, I've seen this many times and it's just a fucking car crash
currently, all of security, the HOS, and captain, all have a protective blanket preventing most actions a non-antag can take against them (as these roles can not be an antag and therefore you have no reason to attack them), i think this is BULLSHIT. just because you cant be an antag doesnt mean you should be immune to being murdered for being a shitter or whatever happens, nor should you be able to ahelp if a non-antag kills you if there's valid reason
Currently this is probably how it would go:
example 1: Security officer beats a botanist growing weed, critting and nearly killing them, the botanist gets healed and makes a baseball bat, killing the security officer in revenge, the security officer ahelps and the botanist gets a note/ban as the sec officer cant be an antag and therefore no reason to kill them (despite what happened earlier)
I think thats genuine bullshit, if you do something that would get you killed as an assistant, you should be able to be killed for it regardless of your job
example 2: assistant breaks into engineering to take insuls, gets toolboxed and killed by the engineers for it (who then take the assistant to medical), the engineer likely wouldnt get in trouble (possibly over-escalation so a note) but thats mostly it
but replace assistant with security officer and itd be a definite note and possibly even a ban (depending on past history)
this is not how it should be, you should be 100% responsible for actions and any punishments that come from such, and no one should have to worry about killing someone that has earned to be killed