Bottom post of the previous page:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34015Make rule 4 matter again!Rule 4 wrote: Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists
Bottom post of the previous page:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34015Make rule 4 matter again!Rule 4 wrote: Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:03 am Marina is actually a very high quality roleplayer, believe it or not, and a pretty fun and good-faith player in my experience.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:50 am No deviations allowed. All must know the meta. All must power the game.
Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
NO PLEASE DON'T DRAG ME THERE I DON'T WANNA
No? All my notes are the same color, which is note hidden at all. I might need to double check, but seems like fading is an admin thing.WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:49 pmVekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
Is this just an excuse to show off you're one of the twelve prettiest girls?
It is admin facing only. For players, you just see all of your notes with no separation. This was explicitly developed as a method to help admins see just the notes that are still relevant and not older than a certain period. Normally, showing off admin facing only stuff might be considered a breach, but I feel like it's important players understand how we see your notes and what actually factors into a ban for them to better understand how our job works.
I don't need to brag, I already know it.WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:49 pm Is this just an excuse to show off you're one of the twelve prettiest girls?
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Ohh sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were telling Timber how it looks for non-admins, and how for us they faded, but you are just showing us non-admins how it looks for admins.Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:19 pmIt is admin facing only. For players, you just see all of your notes with no separation. This was explicitly developed as a method to help admins see just the notes that are still relevant and not older than a certain period. Normally, showing off admin facing only stuff might be considered a breach, but I feel like it's important players understand how we see your notes and what actually factors into a ban for them to better understand how our job works.
"Admins hate it when players try to weasel their way around or out of the rules. Players hate it when admins do the same thing. Don't be pedants."Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
show the rest of that god damn windowVekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
if you do something I verbally warned you not to do, you do it again, and you get punished for it longer than you normally would because I warned you not to do it, by your logic that warning is also a punishment because it directly impacted the result you received.Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
I would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do
Well "talking" is one thing but its really hard for me to take the idea that a singular note is worth more than having an admin spend 20+ minutes down your throat over a relatively benign action in the game seriously from the point of how I treated notes as an admin and how I generally expect other admins to treat them similarly. If youre saying it from the point of how notes have been misused I can understand but the solution there is on the people end and not necessarily on the note system itself (not to say it cant be improved).vect0r wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:24 pmI would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do
I don't know if you've seen it, but I've been suggesting for a while to change that for tgdb/Discord bots. I'll make a stink about it tonight.Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:47 pm "Admins hate it when players try to weasel their way around or out of the rules. Players hate it when admins do the same thing. Don't be pedants."
The in-game panel is the only place this happens. It doesn't represent the most accurate picture of how we access notes in all circumstances.
So many admin decisions are made on the Discord or via reference to tgdb. The Discord bots that can retrieve note histories don't do this. The tgdb pages don't do this. Admins will happily flick through reams of 6+ month old notes and drag them up at some future point behind the curtain.
You're not missing much, there's a couple of IC in OOC notes from before I was an admin and the notes from where I got banned because I was hacked, that's about it.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:34 pmWell "talking" is one thing but its really hard for me to take the idea that a singular note is worth more than having an admin spend 20+ minutes down your throat over a relatively benign action in the game seriously from the point of how I treated notes as an admin and how I generally expect other admins to treat them similarly. If youre saying it from the point of how notes have been misused I can understand but the solution there is on the people end and not necessarily on the note system itself (not to say it cant be improved).vect0r wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:24 pmI would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do
Guess it also depends on what you did but reminder I think the whole argument is a bit silly so ive already said im causing a hint of mischief (the semantics are irrelevant, the concept of notes and being liberal/conservative w them is v important though).
was there a href log to show they checked? I don't believe hrefs are in public logs, are they? Hrefs will probably show exactly what actions they took during this time, but this might have been the point at which they misidentified the weapon they had.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:31 pm Chimpston had stunned the borg beforehand and had time to check what the borg was holding. A 10 second window.
09:27:43 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:49 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) fired at [reinforced wall] with .38 bullet from Supermatter Engine Room (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) shot idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 75) (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
Thats the problem, notes should not affect any further punishment down the line compared to a warning (they should be synonymous).Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:53 pm Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.
I think the reason why people consider negative notes punishments is because those notes affect any further punishment down the line.
A 20 minute conversation with the admin sucks, but if it doesn't result in a note it's a bit of a win for the player because a different admin won't waste his time coming through previous adminlogs just to find it if he needs to punish the player for another issue later. The note system is a convenient means of tracking what the player has done before and nowhere is there more relevant in when considering a permanent ban on the player for multiple issues.
I could see it that way, I don't have access to those logs so I believe it's up to the headmin team for that decision.NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:50 pmwas there a href log to show they checked? I don't believe hrefs are in public logs, are they? Hrefs will probably show exactly what actions they took during this time, but this might have been the point at which they misidentified the weapon they had.Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:31 pm Chimpston had stunned the borg beforehand and had time to check what the borg was holding. A 10 second window.
09:27:43 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:49 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) fired at [reinforced wall] with .38 bullet from Supermatter Engine Room (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) shot idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 75) (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
additionally, I wouldn't necessarily call this a smoking gun. A flashing is still an attack, and delayed actions could be to fumble through bags to draw weapons or even reload.You're on a timer with regards to attacking borgs you've stunned. You either follow up or you hope they aren't subverted and draw their stun arm. I don't necessarily beget anyone making a snap decision and getting it wrong for that reason.
.I believe that should be the general behavior of notes.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:55 pmThats the problem, notes should not affect any further punishment down the line compared to a warning (they should be synonymous).Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:53 pm Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.
I think the reason why people consider negative notes punishments is because those notes affect any further punishment down the line.
A 20 minute conversation with the admin sucks, but if it doesn't result in a note it's a bit of a win for the player because a different admin won't waste his time coming through previous adminlogs just to find it if he needs to punish the player for another issue later. The note system is a convenient means of tracking what the player has done before and nowhere is there more relevant in when considering a permanent ban on the player for multiple issues.
If you get warned by an admin to not do X then that admin sees you doing X, that should come at an equivalent punishment as admin A saw you do X so he notes it then admin B sees you do X. That is exactly what the note system is for and why warnings should be logged.
If you get in trouble for doing X and that punishment is scaled because you have a note for doing Y, people should be rolling their eyes admins included if it doesnt have relevance. It does NOT mean that the note system or that noting for warning-equivalents is problematic, it should be on the onus of players and especially overseeing administrators to make sure the note system is used properly.
That said, notes that do not reflect warnings outside of goodie notes doesnt make sense. Things like "this person played the game in a particular way that I did not like but i did not actually address" is a misuse of the system as well. Notes are/should be logged warnings, and warnings are not a punishment on their own.
One of the best pieces of advice I got for log diving was checking hrefs, since not everything is logged naturally, but you can find various procs in there that aren't logged in other ways. You do sort of need to know what you're looking for.
If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am
If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.
I respectfully disagree. It's unfeasible to keep track of tickets as it is to keep track of notes.mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:32 amIf a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am
If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.
Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
can the discord bot and tgdb please do something the equivalent of this? i only realized how dumb it was in retrospect looking back a couple months ago and i went from "oh notes expire on the user panel" to "well also most of the time we don't even use the in-game notes system we just look at tgdb and the discord bot" and there's been more than a couple handful of appeals that show this, even if the mistake is quickly correctedTimberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:47 pm So many admin decisions are made on the Discord or via reference to tgdb. The Discord bots that can retrieve note histories don't do this. The tgdb pages don't do this. Admins will happily flick through reams of 6+ month old notes and drag them up at some future point behind the curtain.
This is the point of my statement
Yeah, a verbal warning is a punishment. Did anyone say it wasn't? It's just the lightest punishment possible.mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:32 amIf a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am
If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:03 am Marina is actually a very high quality roleplayer, believe it or not, and a pretty fun and good-faith player in my experience.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:50 am No deviations allowed. All must know the meta. All must power the game.
You're right that somebody said it wasn't. You're not right that it isn't. Timberpoes was wrong.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:03 am Marina is actually a very high quality roleplayer, believe it or not, and a pretty fun and good-faith player in my experience.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:50 am No deviations allowed. All must know the meta. All must power the game.
A verbal warning disappears from the face of the earth after the round ends. A note stays forever and influences all future tickets, bwoinks, and bans, having a chance to make them harsher. So like duh one is a punishment and the other isn’t man.mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:32 amIf a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am
If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.
based.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:31 am Also you and Ekaterina agree so you’re ontologically wrong and should take this as an opportunity to reflect.
this would be more reassuring if five posts above this an admin trainer, the role models for the admin team who shape admin culture by teaching new admins, wasn't saying "Yeah I always open the hidden notes and read them all to check if they might apply to the current situation"Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
They don't, ahelp logs are saved forever. You can go onto that one website i forgot the name of and it shows you all your ahelps from years ago.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:31 amA verbal warning disappears from the face of the earth after the round ends. A note stays forever and influences all future tickets, bwoinks, and bans, having a chance to make them harsher. So like duh one is a punishment and the other isn’t man.mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:32 amIf a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am
If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.
Multiple examples were provided of this. This argument was also like the fundamental one made ad nauseum so I hate to say it over again for the bazillionth time.
Also you and Ekaterina agree so you’re ontologically wrong and should take this as an opportunity to reflect.
https://bus.moth.fans/ is what most people use nowadays.BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:12 pm They don't, ahelp logs are saved forever. You can go onto that one website i forgot the name of and it shows you all your ahelps from years ago.
Wine is referring to things like rule 8 breaks that are serious violations of conduct, not just everyday greytiding/over-escalation stuff. Obviously if you have a history of being a creepy fuck that's going to stick with you, but when I talk about notes after a certain date not applying, I'm talking about less serious infractions.Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:46 amthis would be more reassuring if five posts above this an admin trainer, the role models for the admin team who shape admin culture by teaching new admins, wasn't saying "Yeah I always open the hidden notes and read them all to check if they might apply to the current situation"Vekter wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:35 pmTimber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 am If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.
E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
That's not why he was banned. He was banned for mulitkeying, aka "making a new account to play on and pretend to be a new player in order to circumvent a ban or their note history". I'm telling him that, if he continues the same behavior he was getting notes for (which was roughly the same thing multiple times, though I'm not going to post his notes), that he could be banned again in the future.Epoc wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 6:29 pmImmediately followed by using note frequency as a measure of behavior, not "records of discussion":
Saying they're not a punishment and then instantly turning around and using them as validation for someone being banned is dishonest, and frankly, sucks huge dong.
Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 4:10 pm note ≠ ban
however,
LOTS of notes of the same action repeated over and over again = ban
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
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